Are you getting enough sleep?

Let’s get started. Welcome Brian. Christine, Kim, Kim, Richard, Seamus, um, and welcome everybody that I haven’t been able to acknowledge welcome to this call Super excited to have Natalie Bryant, who is, um, our resident expert well our thought leader from Transformational Technologies globally that’s how Natalie and I initially connected She is the- our Thought Leader and is writing state of the sector articles quarterly to help understand what technologies are emerging to help people, uh, with their sleep So Natalie’s background is she did a phd in cognitive neuroscience where she studied how the brain actually processes information during sleep and now is a sleep consultant and a dream consultant So super excited to have Natalie here to, uh, share with us. Um, what I love about the technology, not just technologies, but it’s um, well technolo- like for example, I’ve Oura Ring It creates, um, the technology helps to create the data and with that data, uh, sometimes we need an expert like Natalie to help interpret that data so that we can get the awareness so that we can level stuff up in our lives So thank you for joining us, Natalie, and welcome Thank you so much for having me So we might just jump straight in So sleep and just like our audience fundamentally is, is entrepreneurs and so we’re going to be talking about it through that lens to some extent. But I guess like fundamentally like, why’s sleep important? Apparently it’s important, right? Yeah, absolutely. And it’s a fantastic question because broadley, you know, sleep is implicated in so many of our body’s processes. Um, you know, first and foremost is the immune response. So during sleep we, um, produce and release cytokines, which, um, fight infection and inflammation, and I know we’ve all had this experience where we can, we can feel that we’re fighting something that our immune system is definitely, um, on the defensive against something. And then for whatever reason, you know, maybe we get a phone call in the middle of the night or kid wakes us up or we have to wake up for an early flight. Um, and then you know, that just like all bets are off and we immediately get sick And that’s because we interrupted that natural process through which our body fights disease and takes out the trash, so to speak. Um, so it’s not just the, um, acute diseases that we need to look out for. Um, but there’s also chronic disease, um, people who, um, don’t sleep well, are more susceptible to obesity, heart disease, diabetes Um, so sleep is very, um, neuroprotective in that way as well. Um, other processes that sleep is involved in, um, obviously is cognition Um, so we use cognition as kind of an umbrella term to describe, um, attention, uh, uh, psychomotor vigilance, which is the ability to respond quickly to a stimulus You can imagine that would be really important for driving. Um, and also this taking in of information and creating a representation in the brain which is the beginning stages of memory. Um, and it doesn’t matter whether you are totally sleep deprived, meaning that you got zero hours out of an eight hour period of sleep We call that sleep deprivation. Um, or if you’re just chronically sleep restricted, which means that maybe instead of getting your recommended seven to eight hours of sleep, which is the recommendation for adults. um, In teenagers, it’s more, and in children it’s even less than than in older adults. It’s less, um, excuse me. In, in infants, it’s, it’s more, um, and so if you’re getting less than the recommended amount on a chronic basis, which is, you know, where a lot of us are at, especially those of us that are burning the candle at both ends, um, then we can actually start to look like somebody who’s totally sleep deprived Um, so research has found that it’s not just the sleep that we’re losing, but it’s the cumulative amount of time that we’re awake. Um, because with this time that we’re awake, we’re taxing the system and we’re using resources and we have to, you know, stop the system and rejuvenate those resources before we can continue So what we ended up seeing in people who are either sleep deprived or chronically sleep restricted, you know, are these deficits in attention and deficits in ability to respond that’s just psychomotor vigilance. Um, and in particular, um, a study showed that people who are sleep deprived tend to attend more and take in more of negative information than positive and neutral information. Yeah Wow Which is a fascinating and scientific basis for why we’re so cranky Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then last but not least, obviously near and dear to my heart is, um, you know, the role that sleep plays in memory consolidation. So a lot of people, you know, understand this, um, that we, uh, you know,

remember better information that we learned before sleep so long as we had, um, a period of sleep afterwards So it helps to consolidate or strengthen that information. Um, but what we don’t think about is the fact that like, just think for a moment what memory means to us It’s the way that we understand and can navigate reality And so, so sleep is, and especially the last two hours of sleep where we get our rapid eye movement sleep, um, we, uh, it’s not just that we’re taking in information and then strengthening that information so that we can regurgitate it later. Um, but we’re taking in information and we’re changing our brain in response to that information And so we’re reorganizing the current knowledge structures to be able to accommodate that information. So, so if you’re, you can imagine that, memory in this way, this is why sleep is so important for creativity And problem solving because we’re organizing existing structures in a way that now makes sense given the new information. And as I said before, it’s those last two hours of sleep So if you’re getting six hours or less than you are really, uh, you know, missing out on a wonderful opportunity for your brain to undergo this tremendously creative process and consolidating memories Wow. So that, that, that’s like, like just ticking them off in my head. So, it’s like longevity. Um, for one, um, it’s performance, it’s, it’s like being able to effectively manage our state. It’s, it’s, it’s memory our ability to be able to retain, but then it’s also like insight and, um, our ability to be able to be creative Like there’s five massive things that you sort of just ticked off, There’s nothing sleep doesn’t touch, And I may have missed some. So that, that’s absolutely, um, phenomenal. Um, so how, how i was thinking to structure this is, I know people are gonna have a bunch of questions. If you can, um, keep those questions or post them into the Q and. A. Um, box down the bottom That would be fantastic. Um, and I’ll do my best to draw those questions into the conversation And if I haven’t got to any, by the end, I will, we’ll draw on them then Kim’s asked like what’s the study? Who, when, where, and then she is keento have a look at it Oh, um, so this was a study I believe by Walker’s group. Um, a really good review of this literature, um, is um van der Helm and Walker I believe 2009, um, called Overnight Therapy Um, and so it’s all of the ways in which, um, sleep helps us to, um, uh, navigate our emotions, um, and, and consolidate emotional information Yeah. Wow, cool And that’s just so important moving forward our ability to like you know Emotional intelligence. our ability to be able to relate to one, that empathy It’s almost like dulling our senses by not taking the time to actually get the sleep that we need. Yeah, that’s full on. So, um, so poor sleep, like, so what does poor sleep actually look like? So it’s like, I know there’s a lot of different varieties in terms of how people, um, like they’re not getting enough, whether their sleep’s disrupted, like from your point of view, like what is, um, poor sleep or how are we doing it badly, I guess is what i want to ask, yeah, and you’re exactly right there are a couple of different ways that we can look at it. And primarily it’s like, it’s amount and quality, right? So quantity and quality. Um, so the first one, you know, in the extreme example is total sleep deprivation. Um, where, you know, in the eight hours you get zero hours and, perhaps you are awake for maybe 24, 48, 72 hours I think the, um, the longest somebody ever went in recorded history without sleep is 11 days Um, and you’ll die without sleep. Yeah. So, um, so sleep will happen Uh, but, but you know, we can kind of, um, uh, try and cheat the system every once in awhile and pull an all nighter. Um, and, and, and we’ll be okay. Uh, and there are people that have to do this often, you know, in the military. Um, it’s required for basic training and you know, for, um, for uh, um, protecting your, your squad and, and what have you. Um, college students are, you know, probably the number one, um, population that tends to pull these all nighters Interesting fact about that though. Um, study showed that replacing an eight hour period with study time instead of sleeping, those people don’t perform any better on the tests because they need that time to consolidate those memories

So by replacing that eight hour period of study time, you’re not actually going to remember anything more. And that’s very surprising, um, but so, so those are extreme examples and they’re often very rare Um, we don’t do this on a regular basis and if we do, you need to call me and we can figure out how to, you know, how to get your sleep schedule on a more normal track What people tend to be dealing with in society, you know, your regular Joe is, um, just this, uh, truncated sleep or this chronic sleep restriction. Right. Um, and there are a couple of reasons why this happens. Um, the primary reason I think in modern society is because we have these, you know, uh, very bright light emitting devices that are handheld and ever present These screens are everywhere. They’re in every room and they’re portable. Um, and we live and die by these screens right? They’re the last thing that we see when we go to bed and they’re the first thing that we see when we wake up. So yeah, and this artificial light is going to suppress, um, the, uh, the sleepiness promoting hormone Melatonin, and that’s going to delay your bedtime. So, you know, one of the first things that I work with people on is, you know, making sure that, um, you know, probably an hour to two hours prior to bedtime, they’re reducing their screen time and they’re putting themselves in dimlight conditions to allow for that melatonin to come online on a biological level. So it’s not just a, it’s psychological It’s actually there’s biology happening there Yes, there’s a physiological response that happens when you look at your phone And, and not only that, not only does it, um, suppress the sleepiness hormones, but sometimes it can even, um, increase arousal neurotransmitters. Yeah This is definitely true for gamers. Not only do th- so they get a double whammy, because not only do they have the bright light, but they also have the physiological arousal that comes from, you know, engaging in, you know, maybe high stress, high stakes, you know, a video game Yeah. Um, and so the result is you’re getting less sleep and that you may, uh, you may give yourself an eight hour period of sleep, but you’ve suppressed your sleepiness to the point where now you’re going to sleep maybe an hour or two later, but your alarm is still going off at the same time. Um, so instead of getting eight hours, you’re getting six. Um, so that’s usually what, what happens. Um, and then the third type of, uh, a poor sleep that we see is poor sleep quality. Um, and this is more of a fragmented sleep or just light sleep If you’ve ever had that kind of sleep where you just, you’re aware of the fact that you’re not sleeping, but you’re not quite awake and you’re just, you’re in light sleep. Um, and then you wake up and you feel like you didn’t sleep at all. You know, it’s, it’s miserable. Um, and then, you know, there’s the other sleep where, uh, where you’re waking up every hour for whatever reason. Um, sometimes it’s usually when we’re stressed out, usually, um, you know, there’s some sort of physiological arousal happening Maybe we have an exam or you know, an interview or, or whatever deadline the next day. Um, and, and the, um, our body’s just don’t ever kind of get to that place We call that fragmented sleep. And I do want to make, and I do want to make the point that, um, if you wake up in the middle of the night it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have insomnia, um, and that’s true. Also, if it takes you a little bit longer to fall asleep, um, if you’re not falling asleep within 15 or 20 minutes, then you know, we need to, we need to kind of look at that. Um, and if you’re waking up in the middle of the night, um, and then having a hard time falling back to sleep, that’s when it becomes problematic But this idea that we’re supposed to sleep for the full eight hours is actually a relatively new creation And it was created with the advent of artificial light before we used to go to bed when the sun went down and then we would wake up in about four hours. Um, and because you couldn’t go outside, there’s no light, people would stay inside They would write their novel, they would paint, they would be, you know, intimate with their partners and then they would go back to sleep and wake up when the sun came up So this idea that we’re supposed to have an eight hour period of sleep where, where you don’t wake up at all, um, isn’t necessarily true. So, you know, you can kind of cause more anxiety about your sleep They call that Ortho Somnia. Um, you can cause more anxiety about your sleep by, by, by looking for perfect sleep and waking up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom or get a glass of water or something is perfectly normal Yeah. Well, so just, just to summarize those, those so, there’s, um, wait, the fraction, the lights sleeps You know feeling like you don’t get it enough, uh, like quality of sleep So it’s quality of sleep. Then there’s, um going to bed later than normal So not getting enough sleep and the first one was that um waking up during the

night. I’m sorry, what was that? I, I kind of put that one in like, um, that, that one affects both quality and quantity of sleep. Um, the people who have fragmented sleep, you can give people six hours of unbroken sleep and they would feel better than if they got, you know, an eight hour period of fragmented sleep where they only got six hours. But the, um, the first one that I mentioned was total sleep deprivation, which is fairly rare and only in extreme cases. So I’d love to hear from the guys that are on the call that the, uh, the participants like what, um, if you’re willing to share, like where, where would you say that your sleep falls at the moment, you know, are you any one of those three? Whether total sleep deprivation, um going to bed too late and so you’re not getting enough sleep or quality of sleep. Maybe waking up during the night or having light sleep, if you’re willing to share it’s be great to sort of, um, if you can just comment in the, uh, in the chat, that’d be fantastic It’d be great just to get any indications that we know how to, to direct the conversation And Brian’s asked one about techniques for getting back to sleep, you know, maybe a dream’s working you up and you want to get back to sleep. Um, and some techniques, um, for getting back to sleep, and this is a big one You know, like there’s a whole movement in the startup or in the entrepreneurial space and people call it the 3:00 AM founders you wake up in the middle of the night, 3:00 AM and the anxiety kicks in the mind kicks in Exactly, Yeah Whether your dreams woke you up or whether you, um, uh, it just like being something has woken you up, the anxiety, the stress of the day or whatever it is, but then unable to get back to sleep And I know this is a big one for a lot of people and then it might be that you lay there til just, before the alarm goes off and then you get back to sleep just before the alarm goes off. Then you wake up groggy and tired. Like, so what, what, what’s your thoughts and techniques around then getting back to sleep? So what you’re describing is exactly, you know, this, uh, this response, you know, we’re not, sometimes we’re not meant to sleep all the way through the night, especially if there’s, you know, high stress, um, or high stakes situation or you have a deadline. Um, and if this happens once, then, you know, I, I’ll, I’ll tell you a technique that I, um, that I love to get my clients. Um, but if it becomes chronic, um, just to let you know, kind of what’s happening there is it’s a large response. Um, so if you wake up once, then you know, that’s, that’s fine You and you go back to sleep or maybe you don’t get a good night of sleep or something like that. What you’re describing is that, you know, kind of fight or flight, that anxiety, that is a very, very strong memory maker, right? Because that was evolutionarily very important for us If something made us feel that way and we needed to remember it So what happens is that you create an association between your bed or your sleep and that waking up in the middle of the night. Um, and this is essentially one of the, what we understand to be one of the causes of insomnia is this conditioned response. Um, and so, uh, long term we would work to, uh, relearn or unlearn, uh, that conditioned response of associating your bed with waking up And having kind of an anxiety response. But acutely, so you know, in the short term I’m going to teach you guys, um, at one of my absolute favorite techniques, which I learned from my meditation teacher Shinzen Young. Um, I teach it with a little bit of a twist a sleep twist. Um, but you can also Google Shinzen Young Y, O u n g, uh, focus on rest. Um, this technique is, um, is a meditative technique that will, um, make you, I was, I was one of these people. I can’t sleep on a plane I can’t sleep in an airport. You know. Uh, I was, it was very, I thought that I was a very finicky sleeper and when I learned Focus on Rests, I was sleeping in the dentist chair I was sleeping in the back of my Uber like it was, it was a godsend. So if you find yourself, you wake up and you can’t get back to sleep, you’re going to set an intention for yourself, which is now is the time for sleep And any thoughts that arise, you’re going to say thank you But now is the time for sleep And so you’re going to label your experiences as rest, rest, rest, and you’re going to do it at about this pace. Rest, rest. If you go faster. Restrestrestrest, that’s not very restful If you end up slowing down, make sure that you’re not going off into la La land Okay. But if you’re slowing down because you’re actually falling asleep, then boom, it worked So what you’re going to be labeling is any sensation in your body that is restful. You can also label the, you know, flips of light on the back of your eyelids. Um,

any lack of sound in the room, the sensation, I’m probably making your entire audience fall asleep, right? Yeah Because you’re, you’re hypnotizing yourself in a way. And so the, that sensation of falling, you guys know what i’m talking about the sweet sensation of falling, the heaviness of your eyelids, the slowing of your heartbeat, your labelling, all of these ‘rest’, ‘rest’ ‘rest’.. Five minutes It’s all you need five, 10 minutes, you’ll be done down for the count Wow. Cool cool. So there’s a tool there five minutes tool Yeah. Wow. Um, so Brian, I hope that helps. Um, some of the other um, like going to bed too late So you kind of talked about that in terms of the melatonin and so shutting off your devices Any other tips for people that find that they’re stimulated too late and then are unable to get to sleep obviously, you know, check where your, your coffee intake or your any caffeine, green tea. Um, uh, I don’t know if you know this but Kombucha has a little bit of caffeine in it too. Um, you know, check where your last drink is and make sure that you’re giving yourself sufficient time to metabolize that properly. And it differs for each person I can have a cup of coffee at 7:00 PM and I’ll, and I’ll be able to go to sleep at nine 30 or 10 My partner on the other hand, he has a cutoff of 2:30 PM because if he has anything past that, then he’s going to be up all night and it’s going to disturb his sleep So listen to your body, and that’s, and that’s actually probably the next, the next point which is listen to your body If your body is telling you at nine 30, I’m tired and you’re, you know, you’re really pushing to get something done, just know that you’re going to probably have to pay for that later You’re borrowing, you’re borrowing that productivity for from tomorrow because you may suffer because one thing that can happen is if that Melatonin is released at like nine 30 and you push that off, then you know you’re, you’re going to be delaying your bedtime. Um, if you find that you are, um, a night owl working a morning person schedule or vice versa, then that can also, um, uh, interrupt that can also interrupt your sleep So you can, uh, do a test online You can just Google morningess/eveningness questionnaire or Owl lark, um, questionnaire and find out what your chronotype is Majority of us kind of fall somewhere in the middle. Um, but if you’re like me, I tend to be more of a morning type. Um, and then, you know, uh, younger people under the ages of, of you know, 20 to 25 tend to be more of night owls and then the older we get, the more of a morning person we become What was the name of that questionaire? I’ll just post it in the chat for people, uh, it’s morningness, eveningness and believe it or not, those are words, morningness, eveningness there we go questionnaire so if you just Google that, I just posted it into the chat here. Um, I’m, I’m keen to do that as well. Um, so like you mentioned like once you push off that melatonin so then it may not come back for a while Cause I know Christine’s asked a question here that says that the window for feeling really sleepy is around 7:30 PM, which is pretty early and if she fights through that well then, it doesn’t seem to come on again strong. Um, so if she stays up past 11:00 PM She feels like she can stay up until the early morning So once you push that melatonin off Is it likely that it might not come back? Is that right or? well, I think, uh, the, the real question So the real issue is not so much whether or not the Melatonin comes back, but what other, um, neurotransmitters are going to be released in response to you pushing that back So our circadian rhythm is a complex interplay of a lot of different neural hormones and neuro transmitters, um, that have kind of a delicate, they play like a delicate dance. Um, and when Melatonin comes online, cortisol, your stress hormone, um, is, uh, is suppressed and then as Melatonin, um, starts to decline, Cortisol starts to increase, right? And so that’s how you get that nice little bump that, um, allows you to wake up in the morning, um, and you know, get out of bed and start your day. Now if you delay your Melatonin, what are you telling your brain? You’re telling your brain, uh, we need some more resources So it’s going to send in cortisol and cortisol is going to allow you to stay awake longer. And it’s a compensatory process. Thank you body. You know, because it’s going to allow you to, um, you know, uh, be more alert in times where you should typically be This is why a single night of sleep deprivation,

most people can do it and they tend to feel fine the next day And that’s because you’ve got that, you know, beautiful boost of Cortisol. Um, but if you do this for a long time and your cortisol stays chronically high, and that’s how those people end up gaining weight because you know, as you know, cortisol is related to the gut and how we metabolize food, they tend to be more anxious. Um, and also, you know, it’s, it becomes more difficult for them to sleep in general because that cortisol is kind of hindering, um, their ability to relax and just kind of fall asleep Wow. There’s so much in that. Um just coming back to the circadian rhythm, um, for a bit, if you can talk more about that, um, that like it’s the natural flow of being awake and falling asleep. Um, if I understand it correctly So could you maybe unpack the circadian rhythm and whether it’s relatively the same or can you talk more about what that is Well, so it, it’s an indi- on an individual level. Uh, but everybody experiences the same onset of Melatonin Uh, I wanna say, um, 30 minutes to an hour before their, um, their bodies typical bedtime, it’s released in dim light conditions So if you ever, you know, want to go to sleep quickly, um, just turn out the light And in fact if you need a reading light or something like that, um, research has found that green light, uh, supports sleep. Um, I, I use a red light, so anything that doesn’t have, um, blue light because, um, the receptors that send the signal to your suprachiasmatic nucleus, which produces and releases Melatonin, they’re particularly sensitive to, um, wavelengths and the blue, um, that, uh, light in the, uh, blue light wavelength. Yeah. So, um, so if you, uh, want to fall asleep, dim light conditions, releasing that Melatonin, um, and then within half an hour to an hour you’ll fall asleep Then a wonderful thing happens about halfway through sleep, which is that cortisol tends, starts to come online. Um, and, uh, um, work that was done by Jessica Payne. Um, it was actually her, um, a paper that she wrote like a review paper that she wrote, um, at the University of Arizona just before I got there. Um, showed that, uh, it’s possible that that onset of cortisol allows for rem sleep or rapid eye movements like that, more creative sleep, um, to also, uh, come online. And what happens when, uh, when cortisol enters the brain is that it separates, um, uh, certain parts of the brain, kind of like the, um, the parts of the brain that reign in, uh, the bizarre and creative parts of the brain. Um, cortisol separates that part, the brain and kind of deactivates it such that, um, such that, that certain memories that wouldn’t be activated during wake are suddenly activated together during sleep. So it’s this onset of cortisol that allows, um, that might be what allows rem sleep to be possible and specifically dreaming sleep and some of the creative insights that happen during sleep. Um, and then, you know, uh, you do get a slight little bump, um, of Cortisol, uh, upon weakening. But really it’s when, uh, cortisol reaches its highest point that you open your eyes and, and you feel ready for your day. And so it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s an adaptive process. It’s, it’s a compensatory process. Um, and when you’re sleep deprived, um, that, that beautiful rhythm of cortisol being low at night and then increasing, um, across sleep and then reaching its highest point, um, at wake that becomes blunted. So not, it’s not this, you know, nice curve, but instead it’s just kind of, it’s, it’s, it’s elevated from what it would normally be. And then it, you just kind of get like a little bump So you can imagine if you’re sleep deprived and you wake up, and this is a complaint that I get from a lot of my clients, which is I wake up and I have such severe sleep inertia, meaning that they just kind of feel like a Zombie is because they’re not getting that nasal compensatory, um, upon awakening Yeah. So they’re clinically asleep in the morning and i’ve seen um working with one of my colleagues who’s a health scientist, ah that it can be reversed when you get the cortisol at the end of the day and then the morning you just flatline. Yeah And it’s a wonder why we struggle and we ride the coffee train all day and just trying to get through and then it’s just then our whole system’s out of whack like that Yeah And then it kind of becomes this like self perpetuating cycle because you’re, um, you know, you’re, you’re drinking caffeine to compensate for the, um, you know, the sleepiness that you feel,

but then the caffeine starts to interrupt your sleep. Um, which makes me more caffeine And then that’s where, you know, you’re in a situation where a) like looking, referring back to what you were saying initially, like all the benefits of why we need sleep, we’re depriving ourselves of those benefits. Um, so we’re in a nasty cycle Then the reality is I see so many people in this because of the space that we’re in this rise and grind mentality. Um, and you know, their sleep is the thing that is suffering. Is there, like how if someone did find themselves in that situation, one of the top few things that they would do, I guess it is on an individual basis, but are there any, we’ve already talked through a bunch like making sure that you, um, take away screen time so when your melatonin onsets that you are respecting that so that you ride the wave ride the wave. Yeah And then waking up in the middle of the night techniques to get back to sleep So what else can people do if they are in that situation? Is that something where they need to have like some sort of intervention, like consulting with you or it, it, it helps to have, have somebody at, to have kind of a guide or somebody, um, or even like, just like an accountability buddy, somebody that can, um, you know, reflect a professional that can reflect back and say, you know, this is, this is what I’m noticing here. Some, uh, some things that you can do Um, in my, um, coaching is as you know, uh, I have people track, um, their sleep because, um, people are notoriously bad at recording their own sleep on the whole, um, a study recently that said that women get like three hours less of sleep than men. Um, and it may actually be more of an issue of, you know, some women may be over-reporting their, their sleep, uh, issues. And so the first step is to make more objective, you know, what is your sleep issue? Um, I’ve had people who say, you know, Oh, I’m just, I’m just getting the worst night of like the worst sleep of my life And then when I look at their sleep, it’s, it’s really not that bad. Um, and they’re creating more anxiety around it Now that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who have completely legitimate, um, sleep issues and with those people, you know, we would essentially work with, you know, whatever that may be. Um, so a couple of, I mean, really the umbrella of what we would do together is, um, improving sleep hygiene and working with, um, attitudes around sleep. Because again, if we, if we think that we’re not going to get a good night’s sleep or if we try to sleep, that’s the paradox or the intention right there Trying to sleep is the number one way to not sleep So kind of working with, uh, working with the client, working with the individual on, um, listening to your body and um, taking, taking some of the pressure off, changing your attitudes in the way that you think about sleep and also changing your habits. So our bodies love routine, love routine and sleep is, is just one of those routines and it’s so tied in with all the other processes that even, you know, a change of a few hours in one direction or the other, um, is detrimental to, you know, some of our body’s abilities to, you know, fake disease. Um, and, and our, our metabolism for instance, also tied to these things So getting in touch with what that natural rhythm is and then introducing little cues throughout your day to remind yourself that now is the time for sleep now is not the time. These are rituals essentially where you’re, you’re treating your sleep as as sacred So we already have these where we brush our teeth, right? We wash our face Maybe we take a shower, which by the way, if you take a warm shower, it’s wonderful way to get to sleep because our body temperature, uh, decreases, um, about halfway through the night And so if you take a warm shower and you get out of the shower, that decrease in body temperature from the heat to, you know, room temperature is a great signal for the brain, um, to, to release Melatonin and you’ll get a better night of sleep from that And then the same is true actually for the morning routine You still need a morning routine because it’s so tempting to hit the snooze button or, you know, lay in bed when you’re not sleeping And that’s very dangerous because you start to associate the bed with not sleeping instead of what it’s supposed to be associated with, which is sleeping Um, so getting out of bed and starting your day, or, you know, um, uh, having something that actually for me, it’s coffee. Uh,

that propels me out of that pretty easily. Um, and so really honoring and respecting the bat and treating it like a shrine Um, and, and having these rituals around it are great signals for your body to release the chemicals that it needs to, to give you a good night’s sleep Cool. So I just want to park the snooze button question because that’s often, that’s something of debate, but I just wanted to come back a sec for say like, say for example you’re starting to feel sleepy at 7:30 PM is what we’re suggesting is you should respect that and actually look it seems kind of early, but then you were saying like typically the sun in a lot of places is going down, then you go to bed then, but then you may wake up in the middle of the night and that’s okay Well, so being tired and being sleepy are two different things I think people may feel tired around that time of day because you know, they finally have an opportunity to rest and relax and, um, there is such a thing as, you know, going into that too early and even the risk of this, you know, waking up in the middle of the night and that, that’s not always, um, amenable to everybody’s schedule. It was, you know, a hundred years ago. But, um, but now it isn’t. Um, so doing something, um, not so, uh, um, arousing physiologically arousing. So reading a book, um, you know, you can also write your to do lists cause that’s a really good way to compartmentalize for tomorrow, whereas now is the time for sleep. Um, so writing your to do list, you know, doing minor things around the house. Uh, so things that are still relaxing but aren’t necessarily going to put you to sleep. But the moment that you do something that’s like highly arousing, um, then going to just need to, uh, build in time to kind of, uh, um, rest and relax The main thing to keep in mind is that your bed is only for sleep Well sleep and sex. Um, but your bed is primarily for, for rest So if you’re doing anything in the bed that isn’t that, then you’re running the risk of ruining that beautiful association between as soon as my head hits the pillow, I’m going to sleep It’s a TV before bed. What’s the thoughts on that? Like watching the bachelor or some other trachy stuff? I think it’s important to note. Um, so my, it was my advisor, um, the late Dick Bootzin um, who developed the stimulus control And what I’m describing here is a stimulus control, uh, treatment for insomnia Um, so it’s a set of rules that, um, when followed allows people to, um, overcome insomnia or sleep problems without the use of medication. Um, and it’s, it’s been developed into cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia Um, and those things have also been used in conjunction with sleep medications with a lot of success. So I once asked him, you know, Dick and I, I watch TV in bed. Is there, you know, am I doing something wrong? And he said, if you sleep fine, then it’s fine. You can do whatever you want But for a select few of us, and I’ll say that, that there are times where I notice, uh, I’ve been, I’ve been a little lax on the rules lately Maybe I need to be more consistent and, um, and I, and I have to stick to the rules and kind of break myself of those negative habits. Um, so some of us can be a little bit more lax and you know, watch TV before bed. Um, I will say that people shouldn’t have TVs in their bedroom. Um, but that’s personal preference. Uh, but you know, if, if that’s, if you’re able to do that and not suffer any consequences, then by all means Sure. That makes sense So the other then coming back again talking about that little, um, uh, bumped of, um, is it serotonin that you suggested? Cortisol I’m sorry, cortisol hat we have that gets us out of bed in the morning Is that what happens in the middle of the night though? Do you get that little cortisol bump that wakes you up at 3:00 AM? Is that what that is? Or is that something different? Well, what probably happened was that your cortisol was elevated to begin with, um, when you went to sleep, but you were able to go to sleep because of its, um, concurrent release of Melatonin, um, which probably temporarily masked the, uh, elevated cortisol because that, that process that you’re describing is when we’re stressed out about something So that cortisol release happened probably earlier in the day or several days ago, but it’s been elevated since perhaps because you’re remembering this thing that you have to do or you know, you’re, you’re thinking of, you know, your deadlines are or whatever. Um, so when, when Melatonin is released it can temporarily mask that and allow you to go to sleep. Now, as I said before, when Melatonin, uh, with the offset of Melatonin comes the onset of Cortisol,

which is typically, you know, low to begin with, but if it’s already elevated, then the onset of cortisol may be, um, higher and higher to the point where it’s going to actually, you know, arouse somebody to the point where they wake up Makes Sense. So coming back then to the, the going to bed routine So from what you’ve been saying, a good activity could be to do your journaling then, your to do lists then, um, and sort of get that stuff out of your head So then that you’re not, the mind’s not actively thinking about it You can kind of shelve it as a something that I’m going to do tomorrow because now is the time for rest. Does that, is that fair to say? You know, it, it depends. I mean if, so that as a, as a technique, um, is very effective for people that have a really hard time separating sleep time and worry time. So what we do is, um, you know, I say Most entrepreneurs, by the way, sorry? oh, Entrepreneurs, yeah So one of the treatments or one of the approaches to this is, um, uh, to have scheduled worry time So I’m going to set aside 30 minutes of my day and that’s going to be the day that I just, I just let it all go and I worry and I write things down and I try to make sense of it and I make my to do list and i freak out and then I can let it go Right? And then if it comes up during my sleep, I can defer and say, oh, that’s great. Thank you I’m going to defer that to my scheduled worry time and now you have an opportunity to let it go One of the things that happens when we worry is we hang onto it because we think that that, that’s going to be worrying about, it’s going to be useful. Right? And so what you’re, it’s, it’s not useful while you’re sleeping So you’re not saying that’s not useful. Resist it Push it out in my mind is that doesn’t work You’re honoring it and you’re saying, yeah, that’s important and I want to worry about that It’s just now is not the time when we do scheduled worry time. Um, it’s, I think it has to be three and a half at least three and a half hours away from bedtime. Um, if, if you making your to do list or journaling, does it bring up these, you know, anxious feelings? Like I need to do these things right now. Um, then you could probably do it closer to your bedtime, but if you tend to be a worrier, then you’re gonna want to do it at least three and a half, four hours prior to that time I love that worrying time. That’s cool. It’s compartmentalizing it. Awesome So what about, um, Kim’s asked about like lavender oil and, um, or different types of tea. Uh, what’s the, your thoughts on those, any truth in them being effective uses to help? Um, the onset of sleep? Um, so in terms of, you know, scientifically, I haven’t looked at this, but anecdotally and, and lavender has been around for a long time and touted as a sleep aid for a long time, for a reason. And if you compare it to something that’s more, um, you know, fresh and citrusy, uh, which may be more arousing, um, you know, you can see why, uh, it’s, it’s such a, um, a good sleep aid Um, personally I love lavender. I have a diffuser next to my, my bed and I, um, I use a few drops of lavender oil and it’s wonderful Also here in the desert we tend to get dry in the middle of the night. So, um, a diffuser, uh, is great for that. Um, air quality in general is something to consider, um, when, uh, when you’re looking at these sleep hygiene cues. Um, in terms of tea, uh, I am a huge fan of any like chamomile tea. Um, it works like a charm for me Whether or not that’s a conditioned response or placebo, you know, it’s, I’m sure there may be research out there if somebody wants to point me in the direction of research great. Um, something that you have to consider is that if you drink tea, you’re going to wake up and go to the bathroom. Um, and so that’s going to interrupt your sleep. Especially in those, that first hour is very important for sleep maintenance. Um, and so if you’re waking up in that, then just know that there’s a possibility, you know, you’re running the risk of not being able to fall asleep. Um, now Valerian roots, I’ll just give you guys a little tip here Anybody’s interested in lucid dreaming, um Sleepy Time Extra What makes it extra is that Valerian root, which has been shown to increase, uh, vividness of dreams and luc- and the possibility of becoming lucid in your dreams, which can actually have more of an arousing effect So you have to be careful. It may get you to sleep, but it may, um, actually, you know, you’re going to have more vivid, vivid dreams, which can sometimes be disturbing, um, and, and your sleep won’t be as restful

cool, so that’s a good segue I want to take that segue in a second into more of the dream space, but I just wanted to touch on, um, quickly before we do that On the use of the snooze, like it, the, the temptation when you wake up in the morning is to snooze. It feels good, but you know, sometimes it can leave us quite groggy when we, when we do do that. What’s your thoughts on the using snooze? Well, if, if you feel that it’s totally necessary to do this snooze, um, and you don’t suffer any adverse effects from it. Um, again, you know, it’s, it’s entirely up to the individual. However, ask yourself why you need to hit the snooze, is it because you feel jolted out of sleep? In which case you can use like a, a smart alarm clock, which will wake you up in your lightest stage of sleep and thus reduce that feeling of sleep inertia or like a Zombie, like you, you know, woke from the dead um, and then that’s going to decrease your need to hit snooze. um also, uh, um, uh, this, the smart alarm clocks, um, like sleep cycle, smart alarm and um, Sleep As android. They, um, will, they have kind of a snooze feature built in, but it’s a smart snooze So if you say, I absolutely have to be awake by eight 30, then it will between eight and eight 30. Find whenever you’re in your, your lightest stage of sleep and set off the alarm then and then it will allow you to snooze with however long in that given period. Um, so, you know, again, asking yourself like, why do I feel the need to snooze? Is it because for a lot of people it’s because they’re feeling the sleep inertia and I think a smart alarm would knock that out Yeah, that’s, that’s really cool. I wasn’t aware of them, but that makes, that makes sense because that’s what one of my thoughts was if, if you do hit snooze and you drift down into a deeper sleep again, then it’s just going to bring you up more, feeling even worse than you did when you hit the snooze Precisely. However, um, again, uh, talking about lucid dreaming, which, you know, I’m making myself out as an expert or somebody who works with lucid dreams a lot and i’m not, um, but I do know that, uh, this, this is a technique, um, for lucid dreams, which is called wake back to sleep It’s when you wake up maybe, but you know, you get up and you do something like use the restroom or feed the cat and then you’d go back to sleep. Um, and as I mentioned before, you get in the majority of your rem sleep in those last two hours So you do run the risk of if you wake up and you hit the snooze or if you wake up and do something and go back to sleep, you are more likely to go into Rem sleep. Um, and so for lucid dreamers, this increases the vividness and the likelihood that you will become lucid in the dream. But for people who have to get up and you know, start their day and do their work, they run the risk of actually, you know, um, uh, increasing the possibility of sleep inertia Yeah. Okay. That’s, that’s cool. Appreciate that So moving now into the dream scape, cause I know you, you do consult as a dream consultant as well and for the most of us, and I’m speaking as a generalization here, like we are day walkers, we focus our time in the waking hours And then sleep is just this thing that we do But this is a whole other aspect of our life that we, um, we aren’t given any attention to. But that’s one of your specialties What’s the value of giving attention to our dreams? Yeah, you’re right we spend a third of our lives asleep and uh, so there’s gotta be something happening in there that’s important And I love this topic because it was actually why I went into sleep in the first place was because I found my dreams to be just phenomenal And I just understood on a, on a very fundamental level at a young age that something important is happening. Um, in our dream world, through my district and you know, through my phd program where I studied sleep and memory, um, it’s a lot easier to be taken seriously if you study sleeping memory than if you study dreams. Um, not that people haven’t done it and they’ve done amazing work Um, but that was just, that was my path. And, um, I followed very closely the people who were studying dreams and really what’s happening in dreaming, sleep, uh, rem dreams, particularly those very vivid, uh, narrative style, sometimes bizarre dreams Um, they’re windows into that creative memory process that I described before So memory isn’t just remembering, it’s understanding how we navigate and make sense of,

of our, the world around us is how we create reality. Um, so you can imagine that there’s tremendous therapeutic value there So you have an experience and through your dreams you’re able to understand and, and see, um, the lens through which you’re interpreting that experience, right? Because we’re creating these representations in our, in our brain of the reality around us But it’s through the filter of our prior experiences that we’re able to assimilate that information into our existing brain. And then, you know, we moved some things around in our brain to, to make room for that. Um, so you can imagine that, you know, if we are able to look into that process, we can get profound insight into how we create reality and, and the lens through which we make sense of the world And interpret our experiences, um, on the whole, so this is an incredible, it’s an excellent tool for self discovery, um, for personal growth and for healing, right? So dreams and, and rem sleep as a whole, like the umbrella of rem sleep. Um, as I mentioned before is, uh, very important for these, these creative processes. So by paying attention to your dreams, you can, um, you know, actually connect more to that creative part of you. Um, it was Freud who kind of made the study of dreams, um, scientific in a way. Um, his of course had all of these like, and dark undertones. And then his student Carl Young said, I’m going to take, you know, what I like from this theory, but I’m going to lighten it up a little bit. Um, and, and really what he, uh, what he did for us. Um, it’s like psychologist is, uh, gave us a framework through which we can understand that all of these past experiences or these memories, you know, they exist as memories in your brain All of these past experiences make up who we are But some of these past experiences have been relegated to what we call it, the shadow, right? So we’ve forgotten about them. You know, maybe like I used to play piano when I was younger and now I don’t, or maybe we’re kind of even protecting ourselves from them because it’s painful and achy and we don’t want to feel that So we built kind of a structure around it so we don’t have to see it But all of those things through our unconscious, they’re still trying to make their way to surface. Um, and by paying attention to our dreams, we can shine a light on all of those different shadows and then we can embrace them and start to feel whole again as people. Um, and what’s really beautiful about this process is that it happens whether you’re paying attention to your dreams or not. Um, but you do get a leg up, um, on this process. Um, if you keep a dream journal and actually pay attention and, and interpret your dreams Cool. I’m just, I’m taking on board what you said so like dreams are fundamentally, they can be quite abstract. And I’m like, as someone who hasn’t a different times, I’ve had a dream journal and um, most recently I haven’t. And sometimes I can wake up with like anxiousness, um, from dreams and then I’d sit and meditate to get into state and go about my morning routine And so what you’re suggesting is that through those dreams there’s opportunities to learn about aspects of myself that, would help me on my day to day basis. Is that what you’re suggesting? Yeah, absolutely. And so that feeling of anxiousness from your dream? Um, we get into these patterns where we feel anxiety and we push it away or we feel anxiety and we drink or we feel anxiety and we do something to cope Um, but rarely do we sit with it. Unless of course, you know, you meditate around it and you give it space. Um, and so, so what our dreams are trying to do is show us that, that, that the root of that anxiety came from some experience probably in your childhood, right? Um, no matter how good of a parent you are, you still mess up your kid. Right? We’re all carrying around and it’s, and it’s in, you know, because we’re all doing the best that we possibly can So we’re all carrying around this baggage But this baggage was necessary us to make sense of the world and to protect ourself against, um, you know, certain situations. Um, again, cortisol is a very, very strong, um, memory maker because evolutionarily, like we needed to remember to avoid, you know, certain things in our environment. But it also, you know, sometimes we, we become divorced from the source of the feeling and the feeling itself

And then we find ourselves in a pattern where we’re just reactivating and reliving that feeling and things that were similar to the original experience will trigger that feeling. And we don’t, we’re so used to protecting ourselves from it that we don’t allow ourselves to really dive in and feel it right. With dreams, we can understand, oh, that’s a trigger for me. You know, that person said this thing that reminded me of this other thing And then you can feel that anxiety and also the dream symbolism You say it’s abstract, but if you give it a little bit of, of a, you know, attention and, um, and you know, kind of give it space to, to tell you what it is, you’ll find that it’s, it’s so incredibly creative I once had a dream that I was picking up a game, like game pieces and I didn’t have all the game pieces, but I, I was like, what game is this even, you know, and I looked at it and it was the game of life. Oh, I don’t have all the pieces to this game Um, and it was showing me that I was experiencing some sort of, you know, anxiety or, or something that reminded me of prior trauma And so we start to put the pieces together and it’s such a, uh, it’s not for the faint of heart. Um, because sometimes your dreams will show you things that you don’t want to see I mean, there’s a reason that you’ve been protecting yourself from it But what’s beautiful about the dream world is that it’s safe, right? It’s totally 100% safe because it’s not this reality So your brain feels like, wow, maybe we can create or revisit some of these things that we’ve been kind of relegating to the shadow realm. And that is where healing happens So by keeping a dream journal, um, recording your dreams, what might seem abstract can become clear and it’s an opportunity to help level up aspects of your life and fundamentally as entrepreneurs or business people a business will only grow as much as we as the founders will let it. So there’s a, there’s almost like there’s a vested interest in, in doing this work So you’re opening up that whole whole other world I’m conscious that we’ve got about two minutes left. Um, I love, uh, the, the whole dreams scape Is there anybody else that has a question please pop it in. Yes It’s being recorded. Um, Kim and please, yeah, feel free to share with others I just actually wanted to touch on the technology component of this cause you are, um, as part of Transformational Technologies, Thought Leader for globally, like helping us to understand what’s happening in the sleep space, um, in, in the technology realm. Um, what, what, what can you share with us around, um, like tech that’s emerging that people should maybe pay attention to and how we might use that? So obviously I mean, the favorite right now are the wearables. Um, so everybody’s got, you know, some sort of device that they wear on their wrist or their, their finger. Um, uh, there’s also clip on devices that, um, use accelerometry, which has, you know, um, sensing motion, um, to get an idea of these rest and active states. Then, um, the algorithm can then do, you know, refer, um, excuse me infer what, uh, when somebody’s sleeping and when they’re awake. Um, now fitbit is at the top of this list They’ve been doing it the longest to my knowledge. Um, and they’re also starting and then they’ve gotten really good at it Their algorithm is pretty good. It’s difficult for me to, to, um, rate and review some of these algorithm because those are protected trade secrets. But there are people that have, um, validated against, um, uh, you know, more traditional objective, uh, snea- uh methods And fitbit I think comes out on top. Um, but, uh, they also incorporate, they’ve also incorporated, um, pulse oximetry, which can get us an idea of a breathing, um, people who might be susceptible to sleep apnea, you know, and it also may increase the accuracy of, you know, their sleep algorithm because your breathing changes, um, across a night of sleep. Um, Apple Watch obviously, um, it’s a close second for similar reasons Garmin really good cost effective version. Um, the issue with Garmin is that they focus mainly on the, uh, fitness tracker aspect. So their sleep tracker isn’t nearly as, um, as good as, you know, fitbit and Apple Watch But the problem is that a lot of people really don’t like to wear something on their wrist. Uh, so the aura ring, which you can probably speak to more of than I can, um, cause I haven’t used it, but I heard really great things And what’s wonderful about the Oura Ring is that it can also monitor your temperature so you can get in your own circadian rhythm cos remember temperature is a really good way to, um, to be able to track, uh, um, you know, how your body goes to how,

how your biological clock unfolds across 24 hour period. Um, if you don’t want to wear anything, then those smart alarms, those sleep apps at a sleep cycle, alarm clock, um, and sleep is android, which is the android equivalent. Um, those are excellent. Um, alternatives. The issue is with those is that they utilize, um, the ambient sound in the room. So if you have a bed partner, it’s going to have a harder time differentiating the sound that you create and the sound that that person creates. So it can actually interrupt, um, the, uh, accuracy of that. Um, I, what I’m seeing a lot of is, uh, these at smart mattresses So you may not have to wear anything, uh, and all you do is get into bed and your bed can actually track your sleep for you. And so it’s rumored that apple just bought, uh, apple did just by Bedit and it’s rumored that they’re going to start to incorporate so that these smart sensors into mattresses until we get a better gauge of your sleep through your smart watch Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s cool. And, uh, the Oura Ring, I love it just, because it gives me data like I used to, I’m a rise and grind and I probably was burning the candle at both ends And what I realized after wearing the Oura Ring is I wasn’t getting as much sleep as I thought I was So I started going to bed earlier and even sleeping in longer And the reality is I feel bad throughout the day. Hey, funnily enough, it’s easier to regulate my stay in. And in general my wellbeing is higher and I, I think my productivity is as good and probably comes back to five points that you made at the beginning of this presentation. So for me, it just gave me data that I can then make conscious choices around So really, really, really, really powerful Just helping to understand what’s happening. Um, I’ve got a couple of other questions from you guys here. Um, Christine’s asked, melatonin versus prescription melatonin is there a difference? Um not to my knowledge. Um, Melatonin you can, you can just buy over the counter. Um, it’s probably the same as, you know, if you get, um, prescription, sometimes you can get these things covered by your insurance in a way that, you know, if you weren’t, if you were buying it over the counter, uh, I’m, it may also be an issue of dosage. Um, Melatonin by the way is highly individualized I take like a quarter and I really, you should really only be using Melatonin to shift your sleep schedule or to help you cope, um, with jet lag or shift work or something like that Melatonin is not a longterm solution. Um, but you know, for me, if I take a quarter of half a milligram tablet, I am down for the count, whereas other people can take up to five and 10 milligrams and barely feel anything. So, um, it may be an issue of dosage to these people that, you know, need more they can probably get a prescription Oh, okay. I hope that helps. Christine. Uh, Richard, uh, has asked, I feel annoyed when I wake up at the most traumatic point in a dream rather than anxious. Is that normal feeling annoyed at the most traumatic point in a- of a dream, um, traumatic point of a dream rather than anxious Hmm. Well, let’s see Um, yeah, I’m not, I’m not sure Maybe because they’re- you’re looking for some absolution or some sense of completioni could see that as being an issue. Um, I know if I get, if I get a woken up and I’m having a very good dream, I would have really like to, you know, see how that played out. Um, so it, it can be, that’s, I might be the response there Yes ma’am. Great. Well, on that note, it’s gone past our scheduled time. I’m going to post in the chat here, a link to. If anyone’s interested in connecting with Natalie, uh, and talking individualized, but one on one support. Um, there’s the link It’s um, carpe, is it carpe is that how you say it? carpedream? So it’s like Carpe Diem but carpedream, forwad slash, sleep i’ve posted it in the chat If you reach out to Natalie via the contact form there, mention this Webinar and Natalie has agreed to give you a 50% discount on your initial consultation with her. So if anyone is interested in, in pursuing more information, how to level up, whether it’s sleep or whether it’s accessing the, the power of the dream world Then I highly recommend it. Natalie’s obviously, um, through throughout this presentation So grateful for you sharing the knowledge that you have, um, i’ve walked away with a lot more insights. Um, and just again, in greater appreciation for sleep like, we, we really do need to to um,

make sure that we are getting value from it without actually, you know, making this thing where we we’re making ourselves wrong. So, so many incredible insights as part of this. And, and thanks everybody There’s- people are starting to post their thanks. Thanks Brian, Richard, for um, acknowledging your time. Natalie, uh thanks Kim and anybody else have anything they- Thanks Kim Thanks Kim. Again. Thanks, Seamus. Um, anything else you want to say before we sign off, Natalie? Um, just make sure to, you know, keep a good attitude around sleep because knowledge is power. Um, and, you know, keep a dream journal. It’ll change your life Yeah. Cool. Cool. Dream journal will change your life Let’s leave people hang on that. Um, I really appreciate your time Thank you so much Thank you Thanks everybody