Enhancing EU-U.S. Cooperation in Space: Panel 2

well thanks for sticking around for the final panel which is entitled security for space and space for security which I think captures that I hope the tension of some of what we’re going to discuss which is how do you operate securely in space but then one of the implications for your space operations for security on the ground and we have a distinguished an excellent panel to discuss this I’m going to give their titles we have their biographies available i think in both the website and for you but many of these are old friends all of them are experts let me go down the row here pierre del sol who you heard on the last panel thank you very much for sticking around for the second one director-general for space policy satellite navigation Copernicus and defense at the Commission so a great job next to him is ms Mallory Stewart deputy assistant secretary for emerging challenges and defense policy in the Bureau of arms control and verification at state and a graduate of the legal advisors office which is always frightening for those of us who are foreign service officers right so but Thank You Mallory for coming next to me is Francois Francois triva so most of you know right if you don’t know and we should know him I was stationed here in Washington tremendous job as the it at the Commission office here in DC and now the special envoy for space and head of the security policy division at the EAS at the external action service so very grateful that you would come back and last but not least Frank Kelly who’s the director of earth resources observation and science center at the US Geological Survey which most of you know plays a crucial role in remote sensing in earth observation so what I thought we’d do is I’m going to ask each of the panelists to speak will go down the row we’ll skip me then I’m going to ask them a few questions then we’ll throw it open to you and then wind up with that um here I know it’s not fair since you barely had a break but can we start with you please it’s not fair for them ok and we I would try to be because my fish is even longer than the previous ones so no no I would lie to be shorter than the long speech which has been prepared by me and you know when you talk about security and space you know jonathan is the previous panel say you know Europe is complicated if you talk about security and space is to work together and European context is even more complicated much more complicated why because initially it was very simple you know military security defense member states mostly alone sometimes in cooperation civil use of space european commission and also some member states but your panda mission is a very important role to play so it’s an easy distinction at least as a start but all those things are becoming much more complicated because of course sub of the Civil you know satellites which are out there in the space being sent by the European Commission fat thanks to the money of the European Commission we don’t send it out ourselves for fortunately of course you have security aspects your defense expect which are linked to this so the distinction between was was done by European Commission and was born was done by the member state is now complete is blood and of course as always in Europe we want to be pragmatic and try to find a solution we don’t want to start your non lengthy descriptions ready to revisit the relationship between member states and european commission we have tried to find pragmatic solutions now if you look at the topics of you know this panel which is security for space and space for security i would maybe try to focus first on space for security and if you look at you know the different aspect of this issue and again i’m not focusing on the defense aspects as such but if you look at the issues which are at stake you will see that to some extent some of our civil service a satyr eyes can be used to provide security services and the second dimension which I will now maybe to briefly mention that some of the data that we are you know creating with our satellites can be used for security purposes and that’s a slightly different issue it’s not exactly the same issue and the third topic which you know is important and that the issue of debris and this situation what do we do to maintain actually that the space is a safe environment a secure environment which is something which is very important now

if I move to the first aspect which is the fact that you use some aspect of our civil satellites to have actually governmental information being transmitting the news using our satellite that’s a very important issue because we have of course some public related services where we need to maintain the confidentiality what we need need to maintain the fact that those information is completely secure and we are fully aware of this and actually we have built in Europe some standards and some elements to make sure that we are sure that the level of security and confidentiality of those services is maintained and is you know up to the top level to make sure that we don’t have any breach of security with respect to those services so that’s something which is important and on which we are working to be very honest with you we’ve already developed as I say some common standards and we are in a position where actually we are now trying to the get to very transparent with you to get a mandate to start negotiations with the US with a view to conclude some kind of agreement I don’t want to be more specifically on the nature of this agreement but with a view to conclude some agreement in the future with the u.s. because we consider it’s also an important issue not only for Europe but also for the u.s. and that’s something which has been mentioned also the previous panel the issue of resilience the fact that you need to have actually two systems together is something which is fundamental both for Europe and for the US or vice versa for the US and for Europe it’s a same situation actually since I’ve my Japanese colleagues sitting opposing to me and it me of her job and is also an important player in this context so it’s not listening but still I can repeat it also everything together so that’s something which is which is a which is really important so can expect because I promise I will be short as I said we have more you know data generated by our satellites which I use to provide security services if i look at the European situation for instance one of the important issue for the moment is not only in Europe but it’s very important issue in Europe is if your border control and the true side for instance a model of the data which are generated by Copernicus could be used actually to have a more effective border control and that’s something we on which we are you know working and which saw some private operator but we are working to create this kind of new services based on the data available and you have many other examples of those services link to security which will be based on the data generated by our satellites so we believe that a second aspect which is very important and final aspect because I promised I wouldn’t be very short that the use of you know of debris and the situation in the space to make sure actually that we don’t have any problem in the space we know it’s a concern or so for my you know my neighbor for the US for everybody actually because you don’t want to affirm me too many degrees in into space creating problems of course for all of us for all the satellites which are there now again if you look at the European situation is very complex why because let’s link to a military sector to some extent of satellites a link to the metairie sectors anomalies the Member States competence but on the other end we also as a commission we realize that it was not possible to a thorny an approach member state / member states so what have we done actually we have created initiative which is called space surveillance and tracking initiatives we basically we have put around the table a certain number of member states to key member states actually to be honest with respect to satellite well basically they work together to develop a program to look at this issue and the role of the Commission has been what basically but to combine the effort of those member states to make sure actually that those of member states work together so we are not as such responsible for it but we are making sure that those member states work together and we believe that’s a very efficient approach again pragmatic approach where you have some issues which are of the competence of the Member States because our defense-related but where the Commission place of all just to make sure that we have some kind of coordination so far we have a limited number of member states the most important one from a sad you know defense & satellite point of view but we want to expand this to other member states and of course in the context of the discussion with the u.s we believe this is a platform which could be used also to reinforce our cooperation with the US in the on a bilateral basis because we believe its way actually pragmatic way to solve and to address this issue of security in space I promise always be I would be short I’m stopping you and thank you very much my attention thank you thank you following up on piers good lead-in I think I sorry I’m going to speak I think I need to briseida scuss some of the steps the United States is taking diplomatically in concert with our friends and partners in Europe and

around the globe to address the challenges of an increasingly congested and contested space environment protecting the national security of the United States and its allies by preventing conflict from extending into space is a major goal of our diplomatic engagements in that regard we work to prevent conflict from extending into space via to diplomatic approaches first through strengthening our space security cooperation with allies and partners including by sharing space situational awareness and technology cooperation and two through encouraging norms of responsible behavior to prevent mishaps misperceptions and the chances of miscalculation and to highlight where there is intentional deviation from such responsible behavior under the first diplomatic approach we seek to gain the support of our allies and Friends both to enhance our collective space security and situational awareness efforts and also to enhance the resilience of us bae systems the State Department is numerous base security dialogues with our allies and partners we currently have 15 bilateral and multilateral dialogues around the world and these dialogues help us to explain our understanding of the collective threats as well as our diplomatic and national security goals tomorrow I’ll actually look forward to co-chairing with my co-panelists the the security track of our regular us EU space cooperation dialogue over the past decade these discussions have increasingly focused on opportunities for space security cooperation with the EU as well as EU member states another key element of our international cooperation lies in space situational awareness particularly in SSA information sharing agreements and arrangements with foreign partners to date the United States has signed 11 bilateral SSA agreements and arrangements with national governments and international intergovernmental organizations and 51 SS a sharing agreements with commercial entities international cooperation on space situational awareness is crucial as these partnerships multiply resources capabilities and geographical advantages ensuring a common understanding of our space environment increases the security and stability of our collective actions in space the US government also uses diplomatic engagement to promote the responsible use of outer space such as best practices and behavioral norms and we have certainly worked closely with the EU in this endeavor in the past on debris generation and codes of conduct and we will continue to do so it is clear that no one nation can foster norms and best practices alone however so international cooperation is absolutely crucial given the urgencies of the threats to space we also need to use the most effective and efficient means available and in this regard I want to note that the July 2013 UN group of governmental experts on transparency and confidence and confidence-building measures in outer space recommended a range of measures to ensure stability in space in the form of national commitments as well as through bilateral regional and multilateral cooperation the 15 members of the GG include experts from for EU member states as well as the United States Brazil China Russia and South Africa the United States firmly believes that the G GES consensus report offers a solid starting point for addressing challenges to space security and sustainability and we support efforts in multilateral fora to translate these gge recommendations into results by encouraging responsible actions by all nations in their peaceful uses of outer space as these efforts progress there will be many opportunities for the United States and Europe to work together to lay the groundwork for what the EU terms effective multilateralism the central assumption that guides us efforts to promote cooperation outer space is that a secure and sustainable outer space environment is vital for every nation security global economic interests and for enhancing the daily lives of humankind meeting the challenges of orbital congestion and collision avoidance while promoting responsible and peaceful behavior in space must be the shared obligation of all countries engaged in space activities as two of the significant players in the space arena the EU and the US must work together to face these challenges thank you Thank You Mallory and I noticed that Mallory shortened her remarks to stay on schedule Angie cut the paragraph on the committee on peaceful uses of outer space which all of us are grateful for no no that’s a joke Francois let me ask you if you could then speak thank you James and thank you everybody it’s a privilege to be here with you you know how dear to me this home is security for space the reality is security for space

my friends is declining is decreasing and I will start with three predicaments free obvious consultations first there is an increased risk for space-based assets created by the multiplication of debris and the apparition on a lot of microsatellites and many new constellations of such satellites the risk is also growing of a growing number of assets capabilities by agreeing number of actors if you look on with in the ten years to come so this is a first risk first reason why security for space is decreasing second reason you have a new entirely new risk which has appeared which may be even worse than the previous one which is the cyber risk space assets have been initially planned 10 or 20 years ago they were not taking into account with full necessities with full implications of a development of cyber insecurity and think about what the big internet companies promised are promising us five billions of Internet of Things connected to internet mostly through space-based assets of communications which could if attacked by pirates to be changed in five billions of object which could be dangerous this is a new risk that we have to address third risk the multiplication of space-based assets requires the multiplications of ground segment to support them and more and more and at a time where you had three four five special bases on the ground in three four big military countries this was something but now you have ground segment everywhere in the world and a number of them are honestly completely under protected particular in the context of hybrid war so we have a security which is at risk what to do second point rethink our approaches obviously I will suggest two ideas personal one obviously I might speak on a personal basis here the first one why shouldn’t we consider space-based services as a super critical infrastructure you know that NATO is developing a theory and the practice on I breed warfare the EU is also working on it the mantra one of the mantras of hybrid warfare is that we should protect our critical infrastructure shouldn’t we try to have a priority particularly given to protect of space services and space-based assets considering them as a critical infrastructure which are under attack could expose vulnerabilities of a global which it’s not a local witch it’s not the local catastrophe if you attack a space-based assets verisk are likely to be global till now air transport was the thing which was looking like the most toward something super critical you attack a plane here you can paralyze or delay air transportation in many places even more so with space-based assets so I would advocate for a particular protection of space-based assets second think second track maybe to rethink our instruments we Mallory alluded to that and develop that today you know we had tried since number of years to address the problem of d’bries through the so-called code of conduct a new product we are proud of but we are at the moment where we reconsider and the new mantra we hear is all we should try to go bilateral and do to particular between the main space powers and obviously we welcome that entirely anything which can be done to improve adhesion adherence by the international community to rule of a road and particularly most important players is entirely to be supported without any restriction of mine that said I would argue that this should not be a reason to forget about the bilateral track of a multilateral track we should keep open the multilateral track party at the time where Joe is still out to see if bilaterally the track will be much more productive and multilateral one so I i would say while trying to open a range of choices and possibility we should not close prematurely those who may be a bit rebranded could still produce some effects we are in a reflection on that second element of reflection now not so much on the disarmament control confidence-building measure side but on the non-proliferation side

because you know my my past I have always worked on both issues on the non-proliferation side it is sure that we could give a look to the proliferation of Assad capabilities they are dual use based assets which and objects which are vital to build up Assad capabilities even rustic one in the past we have given through our dual use regime control consideration to think which could be even less vital than that so maybe to consider if there were something to be done which would promote responsible use of entities at like app abilities I think and to develop the idea that maybe this is not such a trivial thing to do this kind of equipment it can be globally destabilizing then maybe I think we could start reflecting on back all in all I advocate for a more global approach of a space domain finally space for security what are we doing at European level for you for European security obviously the Commission is in charge of the global strategy what the es is doing we are obviously assisting the Commission diplomatically in very important diplomatic advisor in very important negotiations you know that there is a particle important negotiation which is likely to be opened when I don’t know yet hopefully soon which is the negotiation about Galileo signal and particularly what we call the pier as Galileo signal that it’s secure eyes the signal of Galileo just think that if this was to succeed this could be a very important boost in terms of transatlantic link it has not only its own utility but it has also if you reflect about it a certain value in strengthening the transatlantic link and this is also something we should think when we talk about you NATO relationship regarding Galileo very yes and wasabi pea mrs. mogherini as you know is in charge personally of the final security the final grande Java security of a system at political level and vs is obviously charge and we are busily doing that developing the procedures which will allow this to be fully operational in a very near future SS asst it has been mentioned obviously the yes is chairing the board of a satellite centre of you in torreón which is the only small intelligence center or regarding optical products from space-based assets we we hope to develop its role a bit to modernize it and for that we would need both the help of the Member States but also of all the partner of a potential partners of a center and finally I would say we are at the moment where the EU in general and VES for the Security and Defense aspect mostly are developing strategies which are obviously connected to the reflection which exists in NATO there will be a space element strong space element in the strategy and so the as a father I can say till now verse our contribution to the space for Europeans security if there is one thing but we know already that the concept of resilience will be central in this reflection because it is sensual already in the global strategy developed by mrs mogherini and obviously any suggestions from your part would be very helpful for us thank you great Thank You Francois well with that let me turn to our final you should be thinking of your questions now let me turn to our final speaker Frank Frank please so I get to be the final speaker and so I’m going to utilize this wonderful room and some of its capabilities because I can’t let you leave today without having a PowerPoint presentation that just would not be right and you’re all laughing at that because you know that’s the truth ok but I can also see by looking at you you all have very bright eyes and I want you to be thinking a little bit out of the box because I’m going to talk about something and if i can get the slides slides started i just i guess i need to start them inter disasters and so now you’re asking ok how does that fit in with security and how am I going to make this work well you’re going to help me and if I have my embedded video works I’ll answer all your questions before I’m done ok I also have the privilege of being the board chair of the international charter at this point and

i’ll explain a little bit about that i won’t go heavily into the organization but i have the opportunity to represent that organization internationally right now so we’re talking about space for security for space and space for security so I took the perspective of space for security and I took the perspective of an outcome based approach on security and when there are disasters around the world and we look at the statistics of those disasters and they happen about once a week there are disasters that we respond to and you have vulnerable populations at the time of those disasters they require a certain level of yes security and so what I’m going to describe here as I go through is talking about how that works with the international charter the international charter also because the response that they provide deals with infrastructure security and that’s the infrastructure that supports other space systems because you never know where our disaster is going to occur and so there are things you need to do to be able to support infrastructure to be able to support space systems and it’s really a coordination and collaboration effort so how does the EU in the u.s fit into this another question you may ask and that is when the Charter started 15 years ago it was the brainchild of the ESA canasa the French agency and the Canadian Space Agency so there is this strong connection with Europe in putting this together so what is it it’s an international collaboration between owners and operators of Earth observation missions that includes both agencies and private sector and it provides rapid access to satellite data it it provides that data quickly and at no cost and that’s another part of the collaboration here that it is a barter system it is a collaboration and it is international so let’s hope that I can get my video almost every week a natural disaster happens somewhere around the world we often watch them unfold live on the news when forests go up in flames when settlements collapse after an earthquake and roads and bridges are torn away by landslides when volcanoes erupt or severe floods wash away our communities under torrents of water when major disasters threaten the lives of thousands can be put at risk time is of the essence and rapid accurate data can be crucial particularly if search and rescue teams have to access very remote terrain today satellites are some of the most helpful observers on our planet from orbit they can see through the clouds detect storms and fires and even revealed the slightest movement in the Earth’s crust literally anywhere in the world however satellites are always moving they pass over a region affected by disaster for only a few seconds return anywhere from hours to days later it is unlikely that a single satellite would be in place to witness a disaster when it happens but there are many satellites circling our planet each on a different track and capturing different views of our earth the chance of getting the perfect picture of the disaster zone is much higher if rescue teams can combine all of these views and pick the best of them this is the idea behind the international charter space and major disasters founded in the year 2000 by the european french and canadian space agencies providing the best available satellite pictures to help with disaster relief and recovery anywhere in the world and doing it without expecting anything in return today more countries from all around the world have chosen to commit their satellites to help provide the information necessary to understand the impact of major disasters what has happened who has been affected and how to respond effectively and every country in the world can access this information through the universal access the international charter offers an earthquake in Asia one satellite has provided a high-resolution image of the area before and another satellite passes over just after the tremor the images show where homes and villages have collapsed a where roads have been blocked by landslides rescue teams have up-to-date information in hours helping them decide how to access the affected area and where they can do the most good a volcanic eruption in Africa special satellites are configured to observe the lava smoke and dust and to deliver high resolution maps of the affected communities experts can accurately assess whom to evacuate and where to establish a safe refugee camp flooding in Europe a satellite gauges the amount of rainfall while another measures the

rising water level through the clouds yet another satellite delivers the latest map of affected areas while others track the next storm brewing over the horizon citizens can be warned train stopped roads closed dams fortified to help manage the worst of the water we cannot prevent natural disasters from happening but we can help to manage their consequences satellites provide rapid accurate information anywhere around the world 24 hours a day the international charter space and major disasters is helping to save lives wherever disasters strike you got to give me a minute because every time I do that my hand really hurts after I get done with that presentation it’s a lot to draw that for the three minutes and so many seconds no but but that gives you a good idea of of what I’m talking about here with the international charter now the charter members you can see them here on this slide it is worldwide and there are 38 charter satellites that are involved in the Charter at this point 32 optical and six of which are SAR providing the Tsar information licenses for the data are provided some multiple some single-use licenses but that all gets worked out within the Charter in providing that data to the responders as was mentioned in the video the authorized users there are 56 authorized users in 49 different countries and the EC is an authorized user what an authorized user can do is to call the 24-hour hotline that we have for the international charter which is based in in Italy and other parts of Europe and invoke the Charter as we call it so that something can happen when something happens on the ground a charter can be invoked data is collected the data is processed the data is provided to the boots on the ground so that they can take the actions they need to imagine trying to get all the data from the number of countries and 30 some satellites if you had to do that alone what the Charter does is it provides that data in a consolidated and processed way to the user on the ground so that they can take the actions they need to take so when you look at the types of activations over the last 14 years or so there’s really two types there’s flooding and then there’s the rest most of what happens around the world 51% deals with flooding and with with water events and the rest there’s a number of different things earthquakes volcanoes fire happening around the world you can get an idea of where the Charter has been invoked for the 14 years or so here just the highlights if you will not that we like to highlight disaster but the highlights for the specific years and you can see in 2004 of course the major tsunami and here in 15 the Charter was invoked for the aircraft crash that just happened in Egypt and the earthquake in Nepal so these are things that you see in the news and you know that there is a response that is using satellite information to provide the populations who have to deal with what’s going on in ability to secure where they are know where they are understand their can their new conditions because the disaster just changed their life and they need to understand how they are safe how they are secure in that in that new environment so just a few examples 11 March of 2014 the china meteorological administration was the requester and this was the Malaysia Airlines flight mh370 charter was invoked to provide information for trying to figure out what happened there we’re still working on figuring out there Ebola but before you go through the examples critter could we maybe move along to get to the Duca can do things that would be I’ll go I’ll just go quickly the Ebola epidemic in West Africa which is one that you may not think that the Charter would be invoked but the population was affected they needed to be needed to be understood where that population was and what was happening with that population the Charter was invoked to support that landslide in Nepal this is just a depiction of the rapid assessment and recovery the Charter on one end provides that coordination and response and then we have an ad approach for recovery that could go on up two years so we’re working that internationally to figure out how response and recovery link up in in this

environment 2015 Israel the Indian Space Agency turned over the lead to usgs which i picked up and then i will turn that over to argentina later on next year 28 activations so up to 30th September so where I started security for space space for security outcome based perspective but the combined assets of the EU and us are a backbone of the Charter the cop the cooperation and collaboration that we have to ensure the security of the satellites the systems and the survivors thank you hey thank you Frank that was very helpful um well it’s been a range of presentations I mean I think about this my own research now is focusing on the survivability and the resilience of space services on the assumption that they are now vulnerable to attack in a way they were in a few years ago but we can come back to that perhaps if people want maybe we can start and I can ask again the panels to just go down the row and speak briefly on where they think the strengths of us EU cooperation are and where they think it could be improved so I didn’t prepare them on this one but when we think about it we’ve heard a lot of you know the areas where cooperation is valuable what are the strengths right and what would you like to see improve and you can maybe just tell us tomorrow’s agenda that might uh oh but appeared we can we start with you thank you that I give you the tomorrow’s agenda are not at all no chance no idea you can always try but its security we talking about security matters so that now first of all I would like to come back because what we’ve heard in the panel demonstrates that we talk about security and space actually week over many front issues under the same topic and to some extent what my wrist spoke about which is important we know what do we do with debris in the space it’s not exactly the same thing that the last presentation explained to us which is basically how can we use the data coming from the satellite to monitor you know what’s going on with us so and cybersecurity is which has been mentioned by Francois is another issue which is also very important so maybe before espana and I’m going to respond to your question but before responding to your question I would simply say that we when we talk about security and space we are covering a range of different issues and the responses to those different issues might differ and to come back to your question yes we can always improve first award by definition we can always improve the cooperation that’s for sure but again to respond to your question we need would need to go through the different issues and to see what we are doing and to situation except we can improve it and again if you talk about the debris in the you know in the space in the and the fact that you need to protect your satellite it’s not the same response that you know aving the cooperation about trying to prevent to know better what’s going on when you have an earthquake somewhere in in the world so topics that is part of this panel is extremely vast actually and if we want to to have to ever you know a response to your question we should actually go deeper into each of the topics and different aspects but to conclude just to your question yes we can improve the cooperation because the more cooperation we have the better it will be for everybody because for those topics all of those topics you know talking about the degrees in the space talking about cooperation with the use of data talking about cyber threat the more cooperation we have between allies so better world we will have all of us I think here’s exactly correctly is that it is a very diverse subject matter with diverse interests and diverse results i speaking on the narrow window of it which i usually operate in the diplomacy front I think the coordination with the EU on international norms development has been exceptional and has very very much helped in progressing an idea that did you know negligent or intentional long-lasting debris generation is something that should be avoided and I think you know between the the code of conduct conversations and between our outreach I think the u.s. the u.s. very effectively placed a good amount of pressure on the international community to try to avoid the development of debris so that’s one element of the usefulness of our relationship in encouraging sort of responsible behaviour so again recognizing and

completely agreeing that it’s a very complicated subject matter I think that we’ve been able to in in certain limited areas including in disaster sort of coordination as we just heard and and in in norms development we’ve been able to coordinate effectively to achieve better results than we could independently is there room for greater cooperation I’d also agree that there are always is room for greater cooperation I think the you know the greater coordination between our available assets potentially a Galileo coordination would be useful I think many levels and I think that’s that’s something that we’re hoping to to achieve but certainly again you can never say no to the need for additional and further coordination so yes I think that’s right if I want to be blunt and very frank I would say the most civilian recuperation easier one the most defense-oriented cooperation the most difficult one but obviously as precious because I’ve said this has to be looked issue by issue but let’s say this is a general trend obviously which is explained by the specific nature of a partition of the activities in value including the fact that till very recently the new commission was not willing to involve itself in defense and security issues so there is a change today but while we are just seeing the beginning of it and I’m sure that this will bear fruit and other elements that I submit to you is that unlike in variation in via transportation you know you know that forty-two point forty two percent of going parts are made in Europe and fifty one of our birds are made in the u.s. I think that’s last figures the same is not as true in space space business models in Europe and in the US are still very different and maybe in the future we would benefit of more interaction between companies making space business this you could think about a number of application ranging from ranchers to space segment two from launchers to two heaviest and more difficult satellites but mostly because the recent date the development of space activities was almost entirely stated driven or public money driven but now both in the US and in Europe we have a more macro societies particle in Europe in the fields of communications and I think there are possibly in the future places for improvements here thank you you just heard what I thought about collaboration and cooperation and I believe it does work but one thing I hadn’t really heard mentioned here and that is commercial providers and what commercial providers bring to this and in engaging as as what we say in in the u.s. a public-private partnership and how those partnerships may or or could work in terms of perspectives that industry providers bring to to this collaboration whether they be you know providing data for what I described or many other aspects of what commerce can do and I think that’s an area that is just starting to figure out where it is and and and where it might be going well thank you um that one was such a softball I was going to ask them where their areas of competition but I think maybe we’ll ask something a little more pointed if you have questions raise your hand but let me begin by saying one of the difficulties from the outside and thinking about how to cooperate between the US and Europe is the Commission’s competency when it comes to security right and the difference is between the Commission and the member state so how are those differences in competencies in responsibility for military security for other kinds of security between the members and the Commission shape our ability to cooperate in space I’m going to leave that open for anyone to start maybe Francois rather than put we’re always putting pier on the spot for Mallory I think its all full time it requires a bit more time on the European

side to put everybody on the same line maybe even in in China but when I look to win to agency process in the u.s. I think finally we are not so far behind goodness I mean I think we just have to from from a collaboration and legal perspective understand where the competencies lie and the legal authorities fall and I think sometimes it takes some time for the u.s. to understand with our international partners where the appropriate legal authorities exist to make agreements at different levels so it really just comes down to you know negotiating with the right the right counterparts and ensuring that the authorities exist to achieve what we hope to accomplish together but I don’t think this is any way a new ooh I mean we’ve been coordinating cooperating for several years with not just the EU but many countries that have a diversification of sort of authorities and competencies within their system so you know it’s something that we can certainly address and have been addressing and of course we have our own federalism issues that we understand how these these things sometimes play out again I don’t deny the complexity but at the end of the day if you have a consensus of what you want to achieve and I believe in this area between Europe and the US globally speaking we have a consensus on what we want to achieve you always find a solution maybe it’s a little bit slower so little bit more complicated but you find a solution at the end of the day and so yes it’s difficult but we will make we will make a solution out of it the common all make here is the international charter is three pages we talk about the complexity of doing things it’s one of those things that when you know what it is you want to do you can define what it is you’re going to do and and and move forward and you know we’ve we’ve been doing it for 15 years that doesn’t make us you know any more than 15 years into it we hope there’s not any more disasters we have to support but we’ve done it in a very concerted and strict way to deal with the complexity so I agree as it can be done great did we have I think we see one in the bed yes I’m Russell King retired federal employee on to the best of my knowledge right now our astronauts when they go into space they’re launched in Russian spacecraft and from Kazakhstan and I believe this the two of the space tourist agencies pay Russia and exorbitant amount of money to launch the space tourists of an outer space but I was wondering about our future prospects of launching manned spacecraft either by the United States the European Union or private industry because I know some of yours and spa tired as I am by agreeing about John Kennedy and Richard Nixon and about the word that is a manned spaceflight are we doing anything with that for Europe it’s a fire this be european union is be clear it’s not part of our project okay as I say we we are not in this kind of you know situation and we don’t intend to of course we contribute to international programs but as such I mean we are we are not we don’t plan to do it now yes we know it’s something which is going to happen I mean that we know that you as poverty Mallory will save much more about it i mean the u.s is working on some programs and you have private operators also trying to do it and even if you go to the movie theater i mean i’ve seen a movie with a man on match I mean that so it’s possible oh no one it is sure that nobody can ignore diplomacy and the evolution of a relationship with Russia has obviously been evolving relationship with Russia has evolved in the last year’s so there will be probably some new reflections about how to ensure our works s to space particularly when it comes to lounges and that said we have also some contracts with them and we have to compare them about the programs we are always part two were always ready I think to discuss with all the partners if they are some Association which can be useful as a suicide okay so when you

think about security in space one aspect of it might very well be resiliency in the delivery of space services and on that note let me ask a two-part question first where are we in terms of interoperability for things like remote sensing Communications and second the harder question how would interoperability and cooperation work the day after an attack on US space assets so why don’t we start there if you want to go first Valerie I mean I think that that our coordination with international partners and allies certainly focuses on interoperability as one of the useful objectives and hopefully something that we can accomplish to allow for resiliency of space services I’m not sure I can list exactly where we are with respect to each of those items but or each of the sort of projects we’re working on in that in that realm but certainly it’s something that that we think is important for resilience and for the continuation of space services what happens the day after I think depends on the the method of attack and and and how what is affected by the attack and if we understand sort of who is doing attacking and what they’ve done I think from a from a diplomatic response perspective there’s certainly international outrage if we’re attacked for no good reason under the law of war there’s you know use of force implications if it’s if it’s something that rises that level so you know would be an entire international law analysis but certainly if we have interoperability and we have resilience capabilities with our allies and friends then we would be able to continue to provide the space services that were hoping to protect and hoping to continue throughout a possible space conflict I mean as I said in the beginning we do hope to prevent any conflict from extending to space but we need to be prepared in the event that it does let me make the question a little more precise that was a good answer but I want to add no because when you were speaking something occurred to me which is perhaps and I don’t know Frank offense wha here wants to talk about it but two possible problems might be what is the role of Galileo if gps services were to be disrupted or destroyed right and second destroyed i had trouble saying that sorry and second similarly for remote sensing if US remote sensing platforms were disabled or destroyed how could we look to cooperate with Europe so let me try with Galileo first of all I mean the first message is that what Marie say we need prevention and maximum prevention and we need to build systems which wait you know which are as safe as possible with maximum level of security and we need resilient and that’s an element which I will come by so prevention is key in this and that certainly effort that which are being done on both sides of the Atlantic and we are fully aware of these sets of first element of the respond now we are developing Galileo and Europe and it’s already something which is you know working operating and will be developed in the future I mentioned in my presentation to effect that we would have this public related services PS which could be part of the response that you do to the question you raised now on pls as I said I mean we are not yet in the face where we’ve conclude some kind of consensus and agreement with the US but clearly on our side we have a willingness to do so and I believe there is a same willingness on the US side of course we have to see the condition we have to see you know technical elements and we have many elements with that we need to take into account but there is a willingness to find a solution and of course to come back to your question if we find these kinds of agreement it might type of course if you have an attack against a GPS system or vice versa again the Galileo system you know we can have this kind of safe solution which would be available there for both of us depending of course we attacked in the first in the first phase yes the answer is a mix of a we should be prepared to operate in a downgraded degraded environment this is obvious this is true for us this is also true for you and the logic is a bit the same if I’m Evan with cyber services in case of a cyber attack you have to be ready to operate in a downgraded environment an important

element key element of a solution is resilience for redundancy you know in cyber you you create mirror website but are ready to operate and are safe because we are they are blocked from the exterior they are immune to attacks and if there is an attack which destroys or paralyzes your network you can transfer quickly on the mirror network the same for space-based assets Galileo is a possibly the most important example in the future immediate future but redundancy is also important in other elements of the space industry I think about launchers for example which is another important element but you could also think of other examples of redundancy as a as a main principle for resilience so downgraded a prepare to be prepared to operate in a downgraded environment to be a resilient through better security and redundancy as a key element these are them for the time being the main tracks we are using to approach the problem Frank you’re sort of a living example of cooperation and resiliency so let me give you a couple thoughts the number 38 we had 38 satellites that we deal with 32 optical and six SAR françoise’s common about you know redundancy and as I would say defense-in-depth so that you have the depth that you need in terms of doing that international collaboration for the Charter but when you look at the remote sensing aspect and I also operate the Landsat program for the US Geological Survey we are cooperating all in with Sentinel to with the with the information that we are getting from Sentinel to the Copernicus program to be able to have that data processed so that it will be analysis ready so that the user of the data won’t know where it comes from won’t have to have that understanding and be agnostic to what that data is as it comes in and will provide analysis ready data that’s the goal that we are working with here at the USGS in the US and with our partners in Europe I’ll just make a comment which is a useful goal for the United States would be to think about how to complicate adversary planning and attacking space assets and one way to do that is through commercial contracts with remote sensing or communications and through cooperative agreements but doing this puts european space assets at some higher degree of risk so it is ultimately a political decision that would need to I’m not sure that the existing mechanisms for us EU cooperation are are adequate for this this kind of consideration it would be in the NATO contact something that would go to the neck what’s the equivalent how would you make that decision if you were put in that position and it would be ad hoc I presume but it depends it depends on the system’s it depends on the system’s some system so we are still busy developing such procedures some other systems the procedures already exist if we had to make joint decisions I think between the u.s. and the you we have a number of channels the USU space Council of tomorrow is only the most visible routine everyone I would say but until the end it is something recent but we could certainly would operational needs appear and be able to develop structures under it if need be i think that’s right i would just add that the nato analogy is actually a useful one in the sense of you know if you attack an asset with the intent of either getting the the action to to diminish us capabilities in the ass that happens to be a european asset then you’re also attacking the european union you’re talking that that that that that party so i think you know the the considerations that go into the redundancy and resilience of space structures does have to translate into

an ally relationship context and an understanding of the commitments and countervailing weights that that you know obligation responsibility entails and I think you know you mentioned earlier if GPS were attacked well that certainly wouldn’t just be an implication for the US would be an application for a large portion of the world yeah exactly so it’s it becomes by globalizing space assets in general and having their effects felt around the world regardless of the owner of that particular satellite you you essentially globalize the response potential as well and i think that’s it that’s an element that helps hopefully to deter attacks and as you say keeps sort of the potential attackers guessing as to what the possible consequences further that action would be thank you do you want to add I you know because I don’t disagree with what is being said and actually a free agree even I fully agree with what is being said because the difficulties is when we talk about attackers I mean it shows that in the past we had the idea of you know estate attacking another state and n to some extent we understood the logic at least we could understand the logic now let’s be clear we have other threats now and the recent events you know which took place for it some time ago in the state and now in Europe show that actually that the you know the type of threads with which we are faced in the future might be a slightly different one maybe the tools will be the same but those using those tools have a different logic then a normal state I would say and for instance in this context I’m not sure that the fact that GPSS useful effector all over the world is the element which we taken into account or on the contrary I would say that would be an element taken into account just to attack GPS in this context so and again we have you know we need to reflect on this and we need to integrate that dimension in our reflection and I’m sure this is right I’m not sure this is the right place to do it but I mean we need to and we are doing it we are integrating this kind of reflection because we have this kind of new traits which are coming from new organism at which I don’t know call them but which we wish I important and could be maybe the threat of the future we’ve thought about in your group Frank I know it certainly come up with and set them well I say I think an important aspect with Landsat are the remote sensing satellites that we share worldwide is that we we build them to a certain design life and then we’re very happy when they fly for 10 or 20 or 25 years and we continue to get data I think the security posture changes when you have assets that you’re still using that are that old because if you took out GPS I’ll take the premise of your question there would be a reaction if you take out a satellite that’s already flown for 25 years and maybe it’s coming to the end of its useful life but it’s still working is that the kind of message someone would want to send and how do how then do we deal with that reaction because that is different than reacting to something that’s going to impact everybody immediately and so those are other aspects that we’re thinking about in terms of what are what our target systems and how do we deal with that and what reactions do we take to them and it is it’s it’s just starting to be looked at final questions from the audience go ahead please there at eleven o’clock referenced oh thank you I’m Tim load from Taos alenia space representative office here was curious too it occurred to me there’s been some interesting evolution over the last five years and particularly over the last three about cooperation particularly with regard to space situational awareness both among states you miss Stewart reference the bilateral agreements that have been going on there’s also from the operational space side from the commercial space side you’ve seen the creation of the space data Association which is in fact housed in the Isle of Man coincidentally and you’ve got a tremendous evolution from my distant view between the commercial satellite operators not just us and european but really global and the US air force with the j Spock and the commercial cell that’s been set up there and I’m just curious for the European representatives whether there’s a feeling that you know being I wouldn’t say the code holders for that effort but whether there’s some European edition or addendum to that that they feel they need to contributors cook or the US would prefer that they

contribute hmm I may have to answer that question which would be unfortunate I think Francois know it responds the question well James I don’t know what you intend to say but as a for sure that go we could think about it if there is a reciprocity core interest I think we shall we could do it there are some obvious technicalities which come in mind the question is are we going to be able to convince our political masters that with opportunity deserve to be sized and that some money will be made available visas honestly one of the issues which could be at stake during our reflection of next year the Commission will lead a reflection on the strategy for space this will be an element a possible element of it so i will not anticipate reflection i will just tell you what this concern will be part of a reflection for sure I mean phosphides a real diplomat so you just so what can i say more that what the diplomat has just said I mean except of course that it’s an issue we are we understand it we understand it’s an issue and we are afflicting on it but honestly if you ask me to give you a straightforward answer now no I will not do it okay well in others models for us EU cooperation and work between ISA and NASA is a good model of what a strong cooperation would look like very successful the work the Frank does very successful and for me of course the question is how do we extend that into the domain of security recognizing the the constraints created by competence but a common architecture which I think was at one point a goal we had for Galileo and GPS a common architecture for navigation for remote sensing for communication strengthens our political partnership the transatlantic partnership and it will strengthen the security of both so my has taken a heck of a lot longer than I think some of us might have expected but I think I hope we’re on a path to build that cooperation in security that common architecture I don’t know if any of the panelists have any final remarks if not thank you know will join me in thanking the panel and we’ll have Heather come on