Onward to Mars: 2024-2033

next panel interesting panel in my opinion but you know I think the program as such as interesting onwards to Mars yes that’s what I want to do although truth be told I was just eating a banana and thinking if I’m on Mars would I have a banana I would miss that now I wouldn’t miss other things too nevermind i would go though i mean i won’t simply leave those things behind now the the pleasure of course is mine to introduce duck cook who has been working i think his whole career relentlessly to get us there and he is you know after 30 years 8 38 years at NASA he’s still doing it now in private sphere and so duck I’ll leave you to introduce your panel and get us to Mars Thank You Artemis thank you very much for this opportunity our panel is onward to Mars in the dates 20 to 24 to 20 20 20 33 approximately first thing I’d like to do is is introduce our panel our panel is made up of people who have been colleagues and friends of mine for quite a few years and including Frank Maureen who was not able to be here today but i think i think i will get some really good perspectives start with with dan dan dan bacher dan is the deputy associated associate administrator for exploration development division for the human exploration operations Mission Directorate at headquarters and in that capacity provides leadership and management for for the organization with special focus as the program director for exploration systems development and that includes space launch system Orion and the ground systems prior to this assignment dan has served as the director this is all chopped off so he has he was he was head of engineering at Marshall and supported all programs at Marshall supports in human space flight he’s also been has has had a really a great and and and career in is has worked on many programs he was a deputy director of the area’s projects office he was deputy director of product Asuran sand safety and mission assurance for the Space Shuttle return to flight efforts manager of the x 37 flight demonstrator deputy manager of the space Space Launch System Program is programmed his program manager a second-generation reusable launch vehicle program a deputy manager of x 33 flight vehicle program assistant manager for the Space Shuttle main engine Dan joined NASA in 1979 he earned his bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering from from Purdue right that was chopped off here to you and and a masters in business administration from the University of Alabama in 1984 he’s married to lead um Bakr and they have three grown children next is Mike raftery who is at the boeing company mike is the director of the ISS utilization and expiration for Boeing space exploration division in Houston Texas in this role he leads planning and execution for full utilization of international space station as Ana’s strategy development for future human exploration blunt beyond low-earth orbit mike has been with Boeing since 1980 and has served in various leadership roles on keen Boeing programs such as international space station crew exploration vehicle sea launch and the 767 is an avid history buff and the proud father of two texas aggie grads which I’m appreciative of sand that’s where I went to school as well but I think I think you’ll enjoy listening to what they have to say and and so we’ll get started I have a few things that I wanted to to say to kind of couch the conversation starting with the Yogi Berra quote if you don’t know where you’re going you might wind up someplace else well I think we know where we’re going we’re going to Mars and and the question is how do we get there and and what steps do we take and

and what all is what all is involved in that in the twenty four twenty twenty four to twenty thirty three time frame as a time where we really need a plan on the intermediate steps and what steps do we need to click off on going to Mars and I believe as we develop those that should be a collaborative effort with with the community and stakeholders so that we have those debates in an organized way there as you know there are debates on what we should do next but I think an organized approach to have in the debate is probably preferable to the unorganized debate and you always get some of course you get some debate around the edges anyway so so we’ll discuss the various aspects of this time frame and preparing to go to Mars in this in this session one thing I wanted to talk about a little bit is what are the considerations for developing a plan such as this one of course is destinations there’s there’s the moon there cislunar space there are asteroids to the moons of Mars those are the ones that we think about as possibilities and and we should think about them in terms of what we can learn and and what they offer in terms of preparing for Mars it needs to be a sustainable program we’ve talked about that various people have talked about it here in this in this conference and how do we get at that part of sustainability is is having that debate and getting through to a this part of sustainability isn’t in the interest that the programs generate and while we in the government and industry talk about how we’re going to do these missions and what we’re going to do we need to be mindful of what these missions give back to the society that is really why we’re doing it it’s not I mean all of it being an engineer I i I’m real interested in the missions I’m real interested in the spacecraft but part of the consideration and and one of the things we think need to think about is is what we give back to to our stakeholders in public I’m going to actually click this little minute ago these are various destinations I talked about I won’t go through what’s on the chart part of the sustainability we have shown through international space station is international participation that’s been important science and the knowledge that we bring back from going to these places is important for sustainability in the understanding of our solar system providing commercial opportunities along the way as a component of sustainability living off planet is something that various communities are interested in affordability is the one that we always get to and that mean in my mind affordability means that that you’re providing you’re providing something that has enough value that people are willing to pay for it and I think so all these factors and sustainability all the all the various components I think are important as a part of that discussion and of course the budget sustainability is important and we talk about change of administration and trying to have just have some stability through those but right now you can go ahead and figure that in the change of administration coming up all of all the various people who are arguing different approaches whether it’s going to the moon whether it’s going to Mars the asteroid mission versus those who want to do other things those are those can take those those are probably the talking points from various individuals and depends on who gets elected which one prevails so I think you can almost predict what kind of discussion there’s going to be in what basis it’s going to be on so it’s important to have a program that that is flexible and is adaptable and can can make those make those steps so so a part of also part of sustainability is having the most having the most efficient way of getting to where we want to go I believe we want we want to have be adaptable we want to have a have a program that that doesn’t waste any any money on offshoots or

rabbit trails and we need to have the most compelling missions for any for any number of reasons from a scientific standpoint or from the generate from the interest they generate and let me just put up a chart so this is an old chart from 2007 that we put together it was actually as lunar oriented but the point I want to make is we put together a lot of objectives with various parts of community in trying to understand why we go to the moon and and so once we did that we lumped them into basic basic themes which is what these represent so the themes were stepping stone prepare for Mars scientific knowledge sustained permanent presence economic expansion global partnership inspiration these I think are probably not unlike our long-term themes and objectives long term but what I want to warn against that basically most of what we talked about in these in these conferences is the very first one the stepping stone and we can’t forget the others because those are the things that other constituents other stakeholders are also interested in and they we have to prepare for Mars that’s the thing that we we do as engineers and in our industry but the others are very important can’t be neglected in my view so I think that’s an important point so we can under we can’t we can’t forget these other themes and we also want to know what we do when we get to Mars I mean yeah we’re going to get to Mars but we need to think through follow-on steps are we going to go to different places are we going to how are we going to set up a base camp in one particular place different objectives will send you to different solutions and I’m happen to be a civil war I can’t say buff it’s worse than that i live in 11 gettysburg and what here’s an example of what you don’t want to do so there’s most of you are aware of the basic Pickett’s Charge at Gettysburg where Confederates walked across the field of over a mile by the thousands and were were badly badly broken up by being fired on by the Union troops on Cemetery Hill a few a few of them made it across the wall actually not actually not quite a small number but one of the one of the things that historians have talked about some sense is that once they got over the wall they didn’t know what to do because all they were supposed to do is break through the line so they all retreated well we don’t want to get in that situation when we go to Mars we want to get there but then we need to know what the next steps are and and so we should think about those as we do this so there Kent showed this a little bit earlier a different version of it toukley there there are different ways of going at it we need to find the right path I’m not going to go through that also I would submit and I showed this at the Goddard symposium I would submit that we we need to think about how we get up where we end up you can go at it by have we various agendas driving space policy that then drive budget that then drive a mission and then you worry about the strategy of what you’re going to do with it in my view we we really need to look at it from the standpoint from a from a vision with imagination leading two goals and strategy leading the space policy then budget than missions and so what we don’t want to do is have a varied path to Mars from where we are today we want to understand a path and and develop one that makes a lot of sense so with that I’ll be quiet and leave that’s it and I’ll turn it over to Dan thank you thank you Doug and good morning everyone what I’d like to do is listening to the conversation yesterday and today is we’re all we’re all headed to the same place as Doug says we all know where we’re going the message I want everybody to walk away from is we’re actually going there and we’re doing it and so the first thing I’m going to whoop see these are the wrong charts how do i be good though okay

aerospace safe okay I didn’t realize I didn’t look at the tide all the aerospace safety advisory panel charts that was yesterday hey man I could go and you could if you have it with you I don’t have it with me but I can go try to fix it here want to try yeah why don’t you go ahead Mike I don’t know how we got that set of charge let me go back and check this is what’s called flexible path yeah very good so so mine are ready it looks like what I want to try to do a little bit time this morning we want to save a pretty good amount of time at the end for discussion too so like we just did with the previous panel we got a good discussion going there we want to do the same thing here so I only have a few charts mr. but this is a few charts from a much bigger package we really don’t have time to go through it all here this morning but if anyone’s interested in it get a hold of me afterwards and we’ll talk and I can provide that to you this is a study that Boeing did with Roc energia who is one of the companies over in Russia we did this together over the last few years just looking at how might we do this mission so I don’t want to imply this is the end-all way to do the mission this is just a way to do the mission there’s a lot of debate out there about how this mission should be done we titled this six not so easy pieces because because each of these pieces are not so easy but but we are on our way and then part of the idea behind this was if you can minimize the number of developments that have to be done developments are will usually drive costs and if you can minimize the number of pieces that it takes to do the Mars mission then you’re going to bring the cost down here that was the basic idea behind it and these are the six pieces okay in the good news on this chart is that we’re already working on two of the six pieces so the two pieces on the left are the ones that we’re already working on and the ones on the right are the ones that still are in front of us and so what I want to do is to spend a few minutes talking about those pieces and how they might be used to do a mission and the two on the left you can see are associated with the Earth’s gravity wells a first phase of this is to deal with the Earth’s gravity while you have to be able to get out of the gravity well and back in I’ve got the ASAP charts not D then oh when you just turn this offer no oh okay Dan yeah dan that’s okay that’s that’s right okay so the second phase of this has to do with in between the two gravity well see of the Earth’s gravity well on Mars gravity well and the in the middle you have to get back and forth between them so that’s the in space transportation park and we talked this morning already about one of the parts of that is a habitation we need to have some kind of habitation capability that the crew can live in while we’re doing this transition now what I’m showing here in our study is an inflatable habitat but as we saw earlier Josh sodium charts that showed a Russian habitat that would make sense and there’s some commercial options out there so I don’t want you to think that these pieces are exactly what they would have to look like these are probably locked down these are all still in play as far as what they might look like okay and then in addition that we need some kind of propulsive in space propulsive capability and so we need a tug now we talked in the previous panel about nuclear thermal as an option there’s also nuclear-electric i’m going to show you solar electric these are the different options that are in play and are being debated and i’ll try to explain why we picked this one then the next phase the last phase will be the Earth’s gravity well we have to be able to land in the way so we have to have transitioned through the Mars atmosphere to land and then assuming the crews coming back right which we are assuming then you have to be able to send from the surface of Mars back into Mars orbit and that’s where you need some kind of an ascend vehicle so if you think about it a lot of these capabilities are very similar to these they’re just inverted right so we’ve a little rocket and a big lander whereas over here we have a big rocket in and a little lander okay so that’s really top level these are the pieces that we need to be able to go to Mars and bring a crew home now there are lots of other littler pieces that are needed of course as you all know we need surface power we need various other things we need Evie a suit capability and things like that now the next chart that I have here is a notional timeframe I kind of come out of a program management background so I’m always interests in a winter these things going to happen and how does it all lay out in a schedule so that was part of our studies we looked at that and what I just want to do with this chart is talk through how this mission would work with these

six pieces okay and what you can see here first couple things jump out at you well it’s some number of SLS launches I’m showing 5 ok but it it could be six it could be for it depends on what you’re doing this is a surface landing mission so we’re landing the crew on the surface and bringing them back so it takes more to do that than it does just to go to the moon’s Josh talked earlier about going to Deimos or Phobos to do that you would need the first four pieces so you could do that first on the way and then bring on the last two pieces and actually land a crew and in this scenario here the first thing we would do is we would land a habitat so what we’re doing here is we’re pre deploying capabilities that are needed on the surface that the crew would then use later when they’ve landed so you’re putting those capabilities in place ahead of time and that does a couple of things for you it allows you to test out a lot of these Landing systems on a roll basically what the mounts your robotic system first before you commit crew to that same approach and that’s always a good thing to do we always want to practice what we’re going to do first with robots and then do it with the crew the second phase of this is when the crew goes so another couple things that jump out on this and and these are all specific to this study we were using solar electric propulsion so what we did is we use those to move the assets out to an assembly point now the assembly point that we used was EML to and virtually any of these places out near the moon would work we chose DML too and that’s what we used in our study and then the systems were assembled there and they went they went on from there now there’s a couple of things you can see here too you can see the transition from the lunar vicinity to Mars for the cargo habitat takes a pretty long time it takes about five hundred days this is a pure sep approach so there’s no chemical used and what I wanted to bring out because this came up earlier this morning in the previous panel how can sep be useful for crew well it probably can if you use it together with chemical propulsion so what we’re doing in this scenario is we’re using pure sep here in the first phase but then later when we go with crew we take the sep and we add a little bit of chemical propulsion a small kick stage and then together what we can see is very competitive trip times for the crew that are maybe not quite as good as nuclear thermal but pretty darn close okay so it’s in the same ballpark and what I really wanted to just bring this out is because this kind of study and debate needs to occur more thoroughly before we write off sep four crew we shouldn’t do that yet because we really don’t know we need to do more study on this and it looks like you can get pretty good trip times for the crew with sap if you also add chemical okay so from a cruise perspective though they’re the last ones to launch and and because you want to try to minimize the amount of time that they’re on the total journey so they’re the last ones to launch basically everything is all ready for them and then they go straight from there they spend a pretty long time on the surface because this is a conjunction class type mission where you basically are going for a long stay mission and we want the crew to be on the surface as much as possible because it minimizes their radiation exposure so you can see there on the surface for 450 days and then you can see the trip back home so you can see a few things on this one it’s a pretty long time frame a mission like this takes a fair amount of time so it takes a long term commitment and obviously something like this is going to take a lot of preparation so are there a lot of things that have to occur back here in the 20s in order for this to happen in the 30s ok so hopefully Dan is ready I’ll just point out a couple of things that are a couple of things you touched on we a number of years ago looked at solar electric and actually taking all of the big items including the transit habitat for Mars including the Mars have surface have including the ascent descent vehicle from ours sending all of that out cycling out to a very high Earth orbit with with solar electorate and then you only need a tiny kick stage you send the crew up impulsively so they get there in a smaller vehicle and and and so but all your big masses go out very efficiently with electric propulsion and then we just had a little kick stage to get them on tomorrow and that’s what Joe was talking about earlier about a lot of the mass that we need release yeah and one other point I guess just on a question that came up about about artificial gravity on the way to Mars there is actually a NASA report on that that we

did about 15 10 or 15 year 12 15 years ago that looked at that using nuclear electric propulsion and actually put together a feasible approach to doing that there are other issues like rotational effects on crew and whether or not the biomedical folks like that but but there there is a report on that for those are interested one last comment I wanted to make about this this is just a view of what this might look like so this is looking at the lander piece so pieces five and six this is the loops this is the lander here and then this is the ascent vehicle that’s sort of inside it you want to have a sustainable program where you’re going to be able to go again and again so reuse of these pieces is very important these pieces that are associated with with the surface are probably going to be difficult to reuse but the in space stuff could be reused so these tugs they could basically cycle back and forth and be refueled and reused over and over again multiple times so this kind of a concept i think is very important for sustainability so i think that was all i really wanted to hit dug in hopeful okay why don’t we start on questions and unless dan’s ready we can we can get to him when he when he’s back come back I so we’ll take some questions now while we’re waiting and and get started on that there was a while we get somebody coming up there was another question on VASIMR earlier actually at one point funded bosmere and and so there one unfortunate thing about vaz mirror which is a plasma basically a plasma engine that Franklin chang-diaz has worked on over the years one of the important one of the unfortunate things is that it always gets lumped with giant nuclear power sources it actually has the same characteristics and performance very similar to electric ion propulsion or Hall effect thrusters and it can’t operate at lower at lower power levels and have very similar characteristics to what and electric propulsion would be able to do so it’s just something that’s always been tagged with that but as that’s what he always had like we always advocates that high high power approach with a short-duration mission and but it can be operated at lower powers so I’m Steve Howe from the center for space nuclear research at the idaho national lab I assume you’re using xenon for your SCP propellant actually in our study we use Krypton you do and so if you do this multiple mission tug what’s the impact on the world supply of Krypton is it that plentiful is it becoming expensive I mean you’re going to be using quite a bit of it for these missions yeah so I’m not an expert on this in particular it might lean on one of my urge have buddies for that I just remember the the gym omission was going to use kind of the world’s supply of xenon for the one mission so i assume is you’re going to do multiple Mars that’s kind of in the eye thing I think that there’s a lot of misconception about this first of all xenon is produced as a byproduct of creating liquid nitrogen so essentially the plants that do liquid nitrogen liquid nitrogen of course is used industrially all over the world right and there’s a lot of xenon in the atmosphere and as they create this they pull all that they pull the on out and they store it off if we went to those plants and said we would like to buy more xenon they would make you happy to sell it to us and in fact there’s ten times as much Krypton in the atmosphere as there a xenon so it’s cheaper and that’s why we were using crib soon if I could just make another short comment it seems to me that with chemical propulsion we’ve kind of reached the fuzzy boundary where it’s not quite enough to do the Mars mission and and it seems to me you’re doing the same problem you’re locking us in with S EP on a similar technology that can yes it can do Mars that’s great but really can it go past Mars can it do the asteroid belt going to go on past it so you’re building the next step technology with S EP that just locks into a niche performance of course I’m a big ntr fan and I think NTR’s open up the solar system to everything so and and I really have no objection to that I I think i look at it more as phases we’re it so in a way you can think of S EP is like the sailing ship phase of salt of space exploration we need to operate with sailing ships for a while and we will will use them at some point the steamships will come along we’re not quite ready for them yet it would take a lot of money to develop the reactors and get them ready for space i don’t think so i think we’re looking then maybe that’s stead of 80 100 million half a billion dollars in five to seven years and you get an MTR that can be a ferry for unmanned probes and sit down so I thanks the debate that I think basically

where things stand right now solar electric is being proposed because it’s an evolution from things that are flying I do personally believe that the open discussion and debate needs to be had on what’s the right approach and you know it’s between solar electric nuclear-electric nuclear thermal and and Franklin’s vaz meiringen but we I think the discussion needs to be had you know agreed I definitely thanks out why don’t we get to dan burisch and we’ll get back to questions in a minute if you no ok we’ll take run number two at this first of all my most sincere apologies we had a little cross calm and I’m sorry Doug I owe you one but let’s go yeah you do I wasn’t going to pass it up I use it too if I were in your shoes ok let’s go to the next and it hopefully is the video uh-oh go get you there well while it’s hopefully working one of what the message that I wanted to leave everyone with you you you you you you you you you you okay so what you see in that video is a lot of the hardware progress that we have made across the space launch system Orion in ground systems team the Orion work that you saw there with the heat shield and the crew module in the service module all at the ONC building at Kennedy is all about the preparation for exploration flight test-1 coming up this December so the hardware is moving the team is putting it all together we’re going through the checkouts as we speak the Orion crew module is sitting in Florida going through multi-point vibration tests with all of the electrical systems powered up and things have been working out extremely well you see you saw some of the tools tooling being put in and actually used at the masood assembly facility for it for SLS by the end of May early June we’ll have the big power structure in where we will their vertical assembly center as we call it where we will put the circumferential welds on each of the cylindrical sections and start stacking tanks and so the hardware is moving as we talk about going to Mars and how we’re going to get there the one message I want everybody to clearly understand is how much progress has been made on the hardware for those foundational transportation capabilities that we need to go to Mars however we do it the Space

Launch System is on track we’re working hard for the FY 18 launch Orion’s on track for eft-1 and ground systems is supporting we’ve got everything on contract we have our contracts basically all definitive things are moving and if we go to the next chart maybe I’m supposed to have the point 0 by now no here we go this gives you from a still perspective you see in the upper left hand corner of the service module being put together the launch abort system across the top it is inert for eft-1 other than the separation motors the crew mod roll on the bottom heat shield being prepared and if you were to look at that heat shield now you’d see all the instrumentation cables running through it to get the to get all those measurements that we need for the heat shield performance and then the forward Bay tiles that we have for the top of the crew module from a the SLS we’ve talked about the vertical Assembly Center in the upper left b2 is well on track for the core stage green run testing that we plan to start in the 2016 time frame in fact the Stennis team is doing a great job on schedule and believe it or not under budget so that’s going extremely well the ATK boosters where we have our call motor one firing later this year in December we had a few things we had to work out on the aft segments and voids we discovered as we went through the pouring sequence but we have fixed all of that and we’re on track for qm1 later this year and across the bottom you see the dome tools the gore panels that we have done all the friction-stir weld with we have done at least one production Pathfinder through each of our major tool stations Atmos you in all of our friction stir welds have come out clean and met all of our requirements we have not had to redo anything on that front and in the lower right-hand corner you see the the picture of the shell buckling work that we have been doing in concert with the NASA chief engineer’s office that’s helping us understand the shell buckling physics better so that we can take out some of the margins that we have to put into our design process and allowing us to still meet all the loads requirements but cut down on a little bit on them on the way in ground systems the crawler transporters in work we’ve been replacing all of the roller bearings replacing the pads the flame trench all the demolition work has been done on pad 39b and we are in the process of getting ready to we actually have the habit on contract now to put the new flame trench in so the ground systems team is working well they are practicing and getting ready for the recovery of eft-1 later this December that’s the bottom middle picture that you see there are underway recovery tests that we’re using to get prepped for December so good progress all along the way in terms of hardware and the first step is coming up this December on our way to Mars so the we talked about going we’re doing it with the help of people here as well as the team across the country we are on our way it’s great to see that that significant progress on these these components which are the first critical steps and going to Mars and great progress being made in it in it was good to hear Taber MacCallum this morning after going to the studies that they did it last year that came up with a conclusion that these were the right approaches for them too so it’s an independent look at it they didn’t start out on that page but ended up there so but it’s good to see this progress it’s very important for what we’re trying to accomplish here let’s get back to question this me this may be far out into the future but we’re talking about the future and we have about 20 years to watch the development one of the things that we’re really addressing in many of our conversations is propellant SCP vs nuclear thermal and so forth my question is relative to perhaps cutting down on the weight requirements to get to Mars is there any discussion around the advanced developments and they seem to

be happening rapidly for 3d printing as it applies to manufacturing and if so is it possible to perhaps bring what you need for 3d printing on the advanced cargo missions to the planet to get that building in 3d printing and and assembly robotically so that when humans do get to Mars you know they would have these pieces built versus bringing from Earth already processed bill building infrastructure which is wait and space to get there in other words you know bring the materials to Mars and and perhaps cut back on the weight because we’re talking about this mass weight which requires so much to get off the ground yeah I think you’re absolutely right I think we’re making good progress on that it’s it’s a new technology that’s just now developing we actually I believe have a 3d printer on board space station today which is a big achievement so we’ll get some experience doing that and I think over the next 10 years you’ll see more evolution capability and one of the things that’s allows you to do is is you have to have the raw materials but you don’t make what you need until you need it and that can save you tremendously on logistics so it’s a great idea yeah and along those lines there’s actually we’ve manufactured selective laser melting other forms of the 3d printing we’ve actually hot fired some of those components on the j-2x and rs.25 testing that we’ve been doing as part of the sls program so the teams across the agency in across industry are starting to build the hardware and we’re starting to put it into the test programs where it makes sense as we go I mean we’re talking about all these developmental steps so as the 3d technology progresses you know I think we can keep that in mind as optional ways to cut back on Mouse wait that’s right I think all the technology basically most of the technologies that are that are in the list of key technologies and their list like every five years over the last 25 year they’re all very similar but they’re all already they’re all aimed at reducing mask because that’s such a big driver in the cost Artemis yeah I have a remark and a question the remark as we all know if we want to go to Mars we need to get the government behind it and to get the government behind it it basically means we need the public to believe in what we are doing is right because in the end the public is footing the bill now it might be that because I’m living Europe but I had no idea that the SLS was coming along as it apparently is and I think if we want the public to foot the bill we should have more movies like the one just like this or documentaries on National Geographic or on discovery channel that are viewed by a great number of people in your in America and in Europe to you know to convince them that’s a good thing to foot this bill because for me the movie I just saw was on par with Iron Man the Holy woot trailer so you know wait you know so it’s say and use that and I think we’re not doing that enough which is waste because we’re doing the work show it well I think that’s a that’s a fair comment we work very hard to try to get that out that’s one of the reasons why we wanted to bring the video over to this audience is to give everybody a chance to see it it is out there on the NASA website you can get a hold of that video we probably need to help people understand where to go to get it it would also help if Dan showed up on time with it every now and then the but I think your message is well stated we work we are working very hard to try to figure out given the resource constraints that we have how we best get out the message and I think over the next year you will see more and more of this getting out not just into in the typical aerospace NASA industry arena but getting out to a broader context so that the not just the US taxpayers but people around the world really appreciate how much progress is being made and how much investments being made because I think they want they want to see it I I know from my own personal experience traveling around the country that when people realize that this kind of work is going on they get excited they think NASA shut down one

shuttle quit fly it and we keep trying to work against that and change that perception and as they see what’s going on they all get excited and they all want more particularly the younger generation other questions well quick question two two questions one is if there is an update on the contribution from Europe for the service module propulsion and the second is what’s in the prospective timeline for the upper stage of SLS what might that look like okay couple good questions first one the European service module is on track in fact we’re going through a preliminary design review process right now we will finish up that preliminary design review next month and we are the technical teams are going through all of the data and going through the design now but that’s making good technical progress we have a couple schedule things we need to work but other than that that that’s well on track and that partnership is working very well for upper stage for the Space Launch System we are trying to figure out what our options are there we have trade studies looking at the different possible engine combinations what that means to the stage design what we do know from all of our analysis and study is that by going to upper stage as quickly as we can we get much more I’ll call it deep space performance in terms of payload capabilities up and out and and we’re focused on making that happen as quickly as we can again that becomes a discussion about how do you fit it within the budget constraints but we’re going through all that analysis now and we’re trying to we’re trying to get upper stage in as quickly as we can hi I’m Elizabeth Wallace and I really did like that film but it reminded me my daughter works for directv she handles the satellite feeds coming into the headquarters in California but she recently went to a conference with me on suborbital research and she walked through Bell aerospace it was closed at the Times nobody working there she goes oh my god I’d love to be able to do this she had no idea she’s 34 you know and now she’s like well how do I now do i how do I get there I i also have a partner at parkland magnet middle school for aerospace technology in rockville maryland and there are so many kids who come from families whose whose parents are you do a lot of manual labor okay and they’re muslim any Hispanic etc and i don’t think we’re showing enough of the technicians roles to children and how to get there and how to do that and how do you think that could be brought to the public more I think we try to show that in fact in some of those videos some segments of that video you saw the technicians working on the heat shield working on the instrumentation cables doing the inspections we try to show the hands-on work that’s going i think it probably falls back to Artemis’s point earlier is that we need to get that out to brought to a broader audience so that they have a chance to see it and point well taken and we continue to work very hard across the board within the government within NASA but across the whole and NASA industry team will we continue to work hard and we need to work harder yeah I think it’s a great comment too and I know within Boeing we can probably do things too to bring that out as well there are many many different people that it takes to make a space program work and all of that work is important yeah a Steve Brodie from ISU just to pick up on that comment and add to it a bit obviously there’s a lot of great technology in the visualization world where even though you know Dan you just mentioned there were a lot of technicians they’re uninformed audience especially students college level or beyond may not realize that that person doesn’t necessarily have to have a masters or a PhD or whatever so there may be ways of you know doing little windows it says you know so-and-so technician without yeah the other comment well the question I was going to have is is if there are a lot of university involvement activities that are a part of these developments that’s also a good message I would encourage you to try to bring into this kind of formulation you know show University logos or mascots or whatever but they show that this grad students

that there’s this path forward for our middle schoolers or high schoolers and our undergraduates to be engaged and not just you know wait till they get to our age to be active in rice or stuff yeah and that’s a very good point and we try to show the logos of all the ones that are involved will particularly try to focus on Texas A&M and do but I’ve got a lot of questions I think we’re about out of time though I was the best one it this looks almost like a design reference mission and instead I think what is needed is a design exploration sequence starting from and carrying everything through your use of l2 as a staging point for going to Mars raises some questions as to how do you get people there and back it looks like you land one habitat and then you land one mission with the crew how do you check out that habitat from the earth that’s a long transmission time and you don’t get very much accuracy which is one of the reasons why you want a focus location you haven’t mentioned but I assume somewhere in here is a lunar lander and a lunar base complex as a building block if you have an exploration or design exploration sequence you better include anything you’re doing at the moon also so we know just what to pitch to the people and to the president are you taking advantage of the people being informed of anniversaries like 45th and whether there is a provision for a second term space objectives of of the president I’m a little concerned that you’re not covering what do you do next do you have a sequence of follow ones that seem to continue using the design reference mission over and over again the way we did in Apollo I think we need a a build-up and what I mentioned the other day for the trans-mars injection what abort facilities do you have in the event of booster cut off near attaining the desired velocity Thank You buzz I I think you hit did very well in hitting the point I was I was trying to make starting off is that it’s very important for us to have this plan in this timeframe early on right like right in the next couple of years next few years where we’re getting these these developments done we’re getting them tested in the middle years be think about Mars in the 2030s in the middle years we need to have that plan the kind of thing that you’re talking about and groups like this are at least a subset of the groups that need two of the constituency and stakeholders that need to have an input to that to help lay it out most effectively so and to get all the best ideas so I I am a big proponent of Blaine out that plan and in fact i’ll quote just to end I have another Yogi Berra almost quote I’d modified it slightly you got to be careful if you don’t have a plan for where you’re going because you might not get there so I think I think we need to develop plan now it’s not too early to be to understand some of the missions in the next 15-20 years that we need to start

playing for soon and not that we can put a definite date on it but we can put it in time frame in the sequence as you said that would would make sense and of course the budget year to year it will dictate exactly when it falls but you got to have the sequence and ml executive Mike just just make a couple of comments to buzz because I think a lot of what you were talking was addressing some of my charts and you know I think I totally agree with many of the things that you said and it’s important that this dialogue occur like doug is talking about because there are many ideas in this community and what you really saw was just some a collection of ideas from a smaller subset of the community and so but there’s a lot of value to laying out what the long-term plan is going to be so that you know that all of those pieces are the right pieces along the way and we have a lot more work to do on that over the next couple of years all right I want to thank you for your attention I want to thank Dan and Mike appreciate