Naomi Eisenstadt lecture – Review of the Life Chances of Young People

Good evening ladies and gentlemen, my name is Chris Chapman and I’m delighted to welcome you to the Charles Wilson Building this evening to celebrate the launch of the Scottish Government’s independent advisor on poverty and inequalities’ second report, a review of the life chances of young people. This evening is co-hosted by three units within the University the Robert Owen Centre from the School of Education, What Works Scotland and Policy Scotland from the School of Social and Political Sciences the themes that Naomi will focus on in her address our quarter the research development activity and knowledge exchange within these three centres and these themes are also a core part of the work in the College of Social Sciences and and the broader University through the research beacon of addressing inequalities this research beacon seeks to develop and undertake world-leading research and knowledge exchange to extend our understanding of the causes of local and global inequalities and in education health and wider society and their impact on individuals communities and systems and the policies that we put in place to address them so given our unrelenting commitment to this work we’re particularly pleased that nickname II has come to University of Glasgow to launch a report this evening in addition to today’s launch there’s just one other announcement I’d like to draw to your attention today the Scottish Government has also launched a poverty and inequality Commission which Naomi will cloture the Commission will offer independent advice to ministers provide scrutiny to help bring about reductions in poverty and inequality in Scotland and be involved in the development of the first delivery plan required under the child poverty Scotland bill before I formally introduce Naomi there are just a few matters of administration I need to run through firstly can you please check that your mobile phone is switched off and I’ve managed and remembered to do mine which is always a good good start and you will also see that the seedlings event is being filmed and we’re taking the liberty of taking your attendance of consent that you’re okay with this so if you’re not I’m afraid I will have to ask you to leave but I hope that doesn’t lead to a mass exodus and thirdly there are no planned firearms so if a firearm does go off it is for real so please in orderly fashion they take the building through the nearest exit so that that’s the administration out of the way I just want to sort of run you through the format of the evening so Naomi’s going to speak for around 45 minutes or so we will then have a response from our panel so we have Alan Watts withers with delighted Thank You Alan who’s director of the Prince’s Trust Scotland Maureen McKenna executive director of education services in Glasgow City Council and Olga Clayton group director of housing and care from the weekly group so thank you colleagues for coming this evening we’re delighted that you have agreed to be part of our panel will then have some time for an interactive question and answer session where we will have a couple of roving mics and we’ll take questions questions from yourselves to our panel and naomi and then finally we will be joined by Professor Sir anton Moscatelli our principal and vice chancellor who will offer his reflections on the evening of voter Thanks and bring the formal proceedings to a close so the honor of introducing naomi for those of you that know naomi you’ll know that she is a robust character who draws robust conclusions and is not afraid to deliver hard messages I think it’s no coincidence that in her title she has the word independent I suspect she has a wealth of expertise and experience being active in policy and practice of the early years for for over 30 years she was a 1st degree in sociology at MSC in Social Policy and a California credential in early childhood education she was awarded an honorary doctorates from the Open University in 2002 and the

Seabee in 2005 in 1999 Naomi became the first director of the short start unit which from my perspective is one of the most potent interventions to tackle the issues that Naomi is going to be talking about tonight that we have seen in recent decades and you know I feel it the demise of short start has been a significant loss to the landscape south of the border and starts you start now me started out in the civil service with responsibility for Shore Start programs but portfolio quickly grew to cover several areas including an early education childcare parenting policy and extended schools she then spent one year as the Secretary of State’s chief advisor on children services and her last three years before leaving the civil service whereas director of the social exclusion task force a key achievement at the task force was the publication of think Family a series of policy proposals on the interaction of parents circumstances and children’s outcomes in June 2015 naomi was appointed by the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon as the independent advisor on poverty and ill equality and released her first report shifting the curve on 19th of January in 2016 now he was reappointed by the First Minister in July 2016 and this lecture today focuses on Naomi’s second report which has been requested by the First Minister a review of the life chances of young people in Scotland Naomi welcome and we look forward to hearing a lecture please join me in rocking thanks very much Chris as astonished actually I was on holiday when the invitation to the lecture came and I was could see to email how many people were signing up and it was quite terrifying so it’s lovely to see you all here and I hope by the end of the evening you feel that it was worthwhile of course this is the first time I’m giving this lecture so you’re my test audience on it thanks for the introduction Chris the one thing that was left out but I always like to tell Scottish audiences is that I came to Britain in 1974 and lived in Edinburgh and my first job was as a nursery assistant in the social services day nursery in Edinburgh and there was sort of three there was the assistants and then the nursery nurses and then the matron and we had different color pennies so I had a very sort of first-hand experience of working at the very bottom of the childcare run and I have to say that experience served me well to my entire career I’m really glad I had it I mean what was most fun is that obviously the I read a lot of books of the children we all read a lot of books for the children but I particularly chose different books so when the children were looking at the books I read to them they narrated them in my accent which was just fantastic so so I have a real affection for Scotland and real affection for young children in Scotland which makes it odd in terms of where I’m going to start my lecture what I think has happened over the last 30 years is that we’ve won the case on early years but in some sense we’ve oversold it and what I mean by that is that we’ve begun to think of early years as inoculation as a good start means that’s done don’t need to do any more and I think that that’s dangerous for several reasons because the correlate of that is if you don’t have a good start it’s all over which is in policy terms extremely dangerous but in scientific terms is actually wrong and it’s wrong for a few reasons it’s wrong because it’s never too early never too late it’s also wrong because no matter how the good start is stuff happens and stuff happens to kids and what I began to feel is that particularly with all the information about the brain research we began to think we began to use language like architecture which made it feel like it was bricks and mortar that’s fixed not malleable and the science tells us it is malleable but also the policy tells us that we don’t give up on kids so I have not lost my commitment to a good start I still think it’s vitally important I still think it builds resistance but I do think that we’ve won the argument is not won the practice yet in place there’s still a long way to go but we’ve certainly won the argument but

on young people I think we’re only beginning to make the argument now and I think that some things have worked against the argument in terms of young people so particularly in Scotland and in England there’s been a huge emphasis on attainment obviously attainment is enormous ly important but what happens when you emphasize attainment above all else is that the kids who you know aren’t going to make it get left behind and not only that they know it and amongst the kinds of stories that young people told me in doing this work was well we get the worst teachers and whether that’s objectively true or not is irrelevant the subjective feeling of we get the worst teachers makes them feel pretty bad about themselves and I think the push on attainment has led us in terms of university to think of this as the be-all and end-all when of course over half of young people won’t go anywhere there’s a social class gradient on getting into university so and I argue this with Nicola Sturgeon all the time of course I lose the argument because she’s the elected person I’m not but free tuition fees is is a fillip to the top half of the income distribution it is a support for already the supported and the data tells us that that in terms of since the recession since the economic crash the fe sector has been cut significantly more than the aichi sector both have seen cuts but you can see from the slide the fe sector has been cut significantly more yet again saying who are who are most important young people why should young people feel left behind well there’s something about government policy that has made them feel that way and it shows in the money that’s invested in them the living wage isn’t till 25 so the government in the you know the UK government is very proud of what they call the living wage of course is not the real living wage anyway but the living wage has had real impact on the lowest incomes but if it doesn’t pick up kick in till 25 it doesn’t help the Scottish young people 16 to 24 and of course some of the some of the wages and some of the non wage things like internships certainly don’t help so I think that there’s been a failure to make it the comparable case that we made for under 5 we need to make the case for young people we need to make the case for 16 to 25 and I also think in some of the arguments I’m going to make in the course of the lecture is that the transition to adulthood is harder now than it’s ever been you know all the work that I did on early years so what will we worried about we were worried about sleeping we were worried about toilet training we you know there were things that we were worried about that all parents worry about but when it comes to 14 15 16 year-olds we’re worried about pregnancy we’re worried about drugs were worried great youth crime the implications of not getting it right or so much more serious and yet our understanding of how to get it right in my view is much less well-developed much less well understood and also fewer opportunities to have those conversations because quite rightly young people are developing their own agency so parental control is going and of course a lot of the influences around peers which in some cases can be a very good thing in other cases it can be a bad thing but I do think it is much harder now for young people than it was a generation or two or two ago and the data is going to prove that so I’m going to show this this slide which I have to say I found a bit difficult to begin with but I’m going to explain it as best I can and what it says if you look at this gap is that each of these lines represents a cohort of people born in a different decade so right at the top here I’m embarrassed to say is me these are the people born in the 50s who could buy houses and this is about the median net household wealth not income which is quite important this is about what people own and the value of what they own and what this represents is the people of my age who had very little difficulty saving for a deposit and could buy a house and how that house is appreciated in value over the last 30 or 40 years but this one down here compares people born in the early 80s to people bought people born in the 70s this one to people born in the early 80s so by the age of 32 people who are born in the

70s have accumulated 50,000 pounds of wealth but by the age of 32 people born in the 80s have generated about 25,000 pounds of wealth so it’s the first generation who are poorer than the generation before in terms of their wealth accumulation and I’m going to talk a lot more about housing in a minute but this is really the gap that we’re talking about in terms of the life chances of young people and this is a poverty lens this is a poverty issue so who are we worried about well particularly those who are more disadvantaged backgrounds but also those who face additional barriers in my first report shifting the curve I was looking at the very big numbers so I had a sort of defense in terms of not looking at race not looking at disability not looking at other other constraints to life and I got away with it the first time and I thought I’m not going to get away with it the second time we have to look at these things they’re really important because young people from minority ethnic backgrounds young people leaving the care system young people who are young carers young parents and young people disabilities all faced additional additional barriers and I don’t like to use the word additional disadvantage because I think they’re different disadvantaged sounds like it’s a problem you have a barrier is something that’s created by social policy and therefore it should be able to be lowered so what do we know about young people well we know that nearly a quarter of young people 16 to 29 year olds in Scotland are in relative poverty that’s basically one in one in four five percent of young people are from a minority ethnic group I mean you can read the rest of the slide the most important thing that we know is that these additional barriers really make a difference poverty rates are higher for all these groups if you account for everything else poverty rates are higher for young disabled people than their non-disabled peers poverty rates are higher for young people from ethnic minority groups than their non-disabled peers but the important thing is that poverty rates for all young people in Scotland are higher than for any other group so they’re about the same as the child poverty rate but they’re much lower than say the poverty rate for the over 50s so the smallest group of poor people in Scotland are pensioners because pensioners have benefited consistently from a social policy that’s protected them but young people have not so it’s people of my age who are benefiting social policy that has helped us mental health outcomes the poor for carers and young mothers employment rates are poorer for all the groups but particularly for disabled young people and housing both in terms of cost and appropriateness is difficult for all the groups so the main themes of the report are about employment housing and mental health when I did the work for the social exclusion task force one of the things we came up for was so how do you define what inclusion is if we take away the language of exclusion what is and I know it’s a way that everybody hates us but I quite like it what do we think of in terms of a normal life and I think the two key features are a home and a job because it’s what everybody in this room aspires to it’s what everybody in this room thinks that’s what being an adult is all about setting up independently being able to make a living being able to manage on your own is about being a grown-up and a home and a job is not straightforward for many many young people today and of course mental health issues is the third chicken and egg argument because part of you know there is an increasing concern about mental health issues in young people but partly in my view it’s because it’s so hard to have a home and a job it’s not the other way around it’s part of the pressures that we have on young people which will be the last theme that I’m addressing so unemployment rates of Scotland by age groups again we had a big spike in unemployment in right after the recession it went up to 22% and then it’s gone down again to pre-recession but you can still see that the highest rate of unemployment is is in young is in young people 16 to 24 the lowest rate of unemployment is the 50 to 64 year olds and interestingly enough I mean I always worry about the language of unemployment because we know that unemployment is not the same as worthlessness so there will be many many people who are not included in these figures because they’re not considered available for work so you’re not for work for example if you’re a young

mother although employment is a name so there so these figures I think underestimate the problem just I always like to my best story about available for work is that when I was in the social exclusion unit one of the groups that we looked at was people leaving prison and one of the problems that prisoners have is that when they leave leave prison to get a lump sum of money which is about 40 pounds and their benefits can’t come through for two weeks so we went to DWP and we said well couldn’t we start the paperwork for their benefits two weeks before they leave prison and the answer was no cuz they’re not available for work because they’re in jail so the system just doesn’t work you know when you get that kind of stupidity that because you’re in jail you’re not available for work duh you know and how you’re supposed to live for two weeks on 40 pounds I don’t know can any one of us do that no so you know so so the Department of Justice and the the DWP we’re not talking to each other about what we do about people leaving prison so in terms of the young people’s employment qualifications do make a difference but what’s really interesting about this slide is that University makes more of a difference for girls than for boys so for boys they have a higher employment rate of 71% with an H mchm dealer equivalent then was a degree of professional qualification it’s quite a significant difference between 68 and 71 percent for girls it’s the usual gradient 77 percent who have a degree have a job 70 percent and you can see the gradient goes right down in terms of level of qualifications so yes getting qualifications matters getting to university matters but what I’m trying to argue in this report is that it’s not the only thing that matters so what did we come up with in terms of what were the problems and what were the recommendations well one of the things that young people told us was they complained bitterly about the Career Service I apologize to anybody in the room who’s a great defender of the Career Service I can only report what young people told us and some of the stories were hair-raising the worst of the stories was a 50 year-old girl from an ethnic minority who said to her careers advisor that she was interested in in politics and he’s actually said to actually she she said it was a she said in her you’re not white and you’re a woman forget it this girl was 15 and I would have killed to have her as a civil servant first of all I think that the person who was advising her only thought about politics in terms of being a politician not in terms of working in local government not in terms of working as a civil servant and what she could have contributed to the civil service in terms of her experience is extraordinary so it wasn’t just a loss for this young woman it’s a loss for all of us that we’re wasting that talent and stuff but the other story we got a lot was about in terms of career service was those that are going to university get two or three days helping with the upper forms we get a link on the computer screen they wanted face to face advice they wanted somebody to talk to they didn’t just want a link on the computer screen and what was interesting about the kinds of things they said is that we get the worst teachers now again that might be subjective but subjective feelings matter it matters in your sense of self-worth I don’t know if that objectively true or not but people’s feelings of self-worth will have a huge impact on their ability to do a job interview on their ability to go out and take that course on their ability to take the bus to get to a job that isn’t in their neighborhood and the young people I spoke to who do not have to not have a feeling of self self-worth so a new model of advice services we suggest and we talk to the young people about this was about how do we bring together the advice on careers the admit the advice on post school the advice on housing and the advice on benefit into a type of dedicated C ad service for young people we’re not suggesting that there’ll be a new CA B service but if you had a dedicated information single site with portals that all of the adults who work with young people knew how to use then a young person could get advice from whoever they get on with because that was the other thing that really was clear to us that nobody felt completely alone all of them could fight some adult for whom they really had trust but it’s random who it is it could be a youth worker it could be a teacher it could be a careers advisor it could be anyone but

it was someone and the trick is how do you make best of those relationships because they will be ad hoc they’re not systematic and the other thing about advice which I think we all know from our own experience is you need it when you need it so a lot of the suggestions always have you know well you know they need to understand financial planning that should be in the school curriculum they need to understand this or that that should be in the school curriculum I don’t think that’s the case I don’t think that you can learn this stuff until you need it but it’s when you need it that you learn it and the both Peter the best example for me of that as many years ago I had a job rose in preparation for Parenthood in secondary schools and we came to the conclusion that it was completely ridiculous to try to prepare anyone for Parenthood but particularly young people who we hope with several years away from it you know I mean the hope was that it wasn’t going to be a new experience for them in the near future so the press so you need to prepare people for the experience that they’re about to have when they’re keenly interested in and boys you learn how to be a parent when you have that baby yeah and do you learn how to how to how to manage your money when you get your first paycheck so people do learn but they learn as they need it and that’s why having a dedicated advice service that’s integrated along with whoever the advisors are that know how to use it it’s what we mean about a new model of advisors services improved data tracking was about how do we know what happens to young people when they leave school how do we know young when they lose when they have their apprenticeship what kind of job do they go on to is it a job that has a career structure is it a job where they’re likely then to go on and get further training we you know the best we had was six months post we didn’t have two three four years how do we know what’s working if we don’t have a long term tracking system to say this is the kind of experience they have and in five years this is where they are so we felt that there needed to be a lot better system to track the different trajectories young people have and where it leads them to certainly the development Scotland developing Scotland young workforce is making good progress on improving gauge machine local employers in schools and we saw a lot of good examples of it but again not yet systematic it was dependent on the enthusiasm of the head teacher it was dependent on local relationships local relationships are absolutely critical but there wasn’t a system that said in every secondary school there needs to be senior leadership that who has dedicated time to making relationships with employers and I have to say that that’s part of the problem about the attainment gap and the real pressure on attainment which means that we’re not putting enough senior leadership time to making those relationships on what are the skills needs in these localities what do employers need how do we get kids into schools to experience the workplace much younger and that goes to the valuing non-academic routes post school and that’s that’s not something that government can legislate for that is about a culture change though it is about us off you know it’s a very funny thing it was something that I noticed when I first came to live in Britain that there is this magic thing called called University and yet in places like Germany technical skills are really highly valued and I would kill for the German economy because they still had enough jobs for non-academic young people who then can go on to do apprenticeships and technical traineeship and all the stuff about the state you know STEM subjects we need to think much more broadly about different trajectories and the differ timescales that young people have and that was the developing better collaboration between fe and hea because we heard of some examples where you could do your first two years in an fe setting transfer to university and not have to repeat the two years which is cheaper for the government because a chi is more expensive than fe but also it means that you’re already on your way and it makes them much more flexible people mature at different rates people are ready to do different things and it’s kind of not until you find the thing you’re really passionate about are you ready to do that further study and it takes some people longer to find what they’re passionate about so a greater flexibility and more collaboration between fe and h ii was was really important in terms of what we saw we saw access to the labour market job design and recruitment processes this was this we looked at at both ends of the spectrum so what we found for young people from ethnic minorities is that they got the qualifications and they didn’t get the jobs so we need to think about blind recruitment we need to think about blind named recruitment so you’re not discriminated against before you

even start because the qualification levels of particularly young South Asian peoples is very very high but their access to the best jobs is much low at the other end of the spectrum you find that adults with learning disabilities the requirements for the job application are higher than the requirements to do the job so the kind of form you have to fill in sometimes is much more difficult than that what they’re recruiting you to do which excludes some people who can really contribute in the workforce and would feel much better about themselves as they had a job but they just cannot get access because the application processes are more a higher level than what the job requires so job design and recruitment are really really important it’s a responsibility of employers purpose post school internships well it’s pretty obvious who can afford to do an unpaid intern ship you can only afford that if your parents can afford to support you so internships post school internships should be should be paid and we got a lot of complaints about the support through jobs venture plus young people just didn’t want to go there they didn’t feel that it was young person friendly and young people are disproportionately affected by the regime of a removal of benefits by the sanctions regime and the sanctions regime is particularly cool on young people yeah because they are they are more likely to get sanctions and that issue about well even if you appeal and you get your money back six weeks later six weeks without money is a long time not to eat and of course if you talk to food bank people very often the reason that people are attending a food bank is because of sanctions because of benefits delays so the improved support to Jobcentre Plus is something that I said that the Scottish government should talk to DWP about just because we don’t have the power it doesn’t mean we can’t shout about it I mean after all I don’t have the power and I shout about everything so job quality and pay zero hours contracts need i say more extending the national living wage to 18 jeremy corbyn said 16 i think 18 is probably sensible most 16 year-olds are still at least living in within families or within some kind of protected accommodation i think we need to extend the living wage to 18 year old but do more to promote the principles of inclusive growth it’s kind of a new buzz language and i have to say that i was pretty skeptical about it until I went to Clyde gateway and saw you know a regeneration project where every single new building that they showed me he told me how many local jobs were created one of the difficulties in employment is that the poorest areas have the least employment opportunities and again young people from the poorest areas have the greatest difficulty going somewhere for jobs which links to the transport thing so what I would say about inclusive growth is if the Scottish government is going to spend on infrastructure they should spend it in the poorest areas they should start investing where the investment is the most and they should build into those investments job creation and career development and training so that you know modern apprenticeships are very good we need more of them and we need more of them available in the poorest areas and we need to make sure that our free and subsidized Transport doesn’t start after 9:32 can’t get to your college cause undone because you can’t pay for the bus these are really quite simple things that a design you know I get a bus pass why do I get a bus pass and the 17-year old trying to get to college doesn’t it’s crazy completely crazy so housing the next one I’m going to talk about is housing so what this chart tells you is the blue line is owner-occupiers between 16 and 34 between 1999 and 2015 and you can see what happened is over half of young people up to the age of 34 in 1999 were already mortgage payers and by 2016 at 15 that went down to around 30% so you and of course in relation to the steep decline in owner occupier is the Green Line which is a huge increase in the private rented sector now Scotland has much better controls on the private rented sector than England but one of the things I picked up in the works was the the inability to really do the make sure that the enforcement but that the regulations we have are enforced so there was a lot of difficulty in people

having trouble with private landlords actually knowing who to complain to how to get their rights established I know that work is going on about this but I think again it’s a really really key issue for young people because the private rented sector feels insecure and you’re not saving for the future I mean one of the things about home ownership is that you’re building equity you’re building your future it doesn’t mean everybody has to do but it would be good if that blue line were were reversed so affordability measures this line shows you the peak in the deposit needed in 2010 now it’s come down a little but it’s nowhere near the sort of 1999-2000 level in terms of the need for deposit which is why so many more young people around this time we’re able to buy a house then are able to buy a house now and if you combine that you can’t get the minimum wage so you’re 25 how are you going to say for deposit for the combination about very low wage insecure economy zero hours contracts part-time and low wage means that how do you say for deposit and I do occasionally when I’m on a bus hear people talk about feckless young people who go out all the time and don’t save well well how on earth are they supposed to save and if you can’t see a route through why wouldn’t you go out and have a good time that’s what we all do isn’t it you know there was a time when there was a sensible way that you could say for deposit and that’s shown in the people who who have houses but this one is the one that I think is most shocking in terms of the ratio the income spent if you’re in the private rented sector of course poorer people are in the top two lines the private rented sector and and social housing which is the top two lined but they’re spending a quarter of their income on rent owner-occupiers or who are the mortgage are spending what about fifteen to ten percent of their income on rent and look at the lucky people who own outright what they’re spending on their housing I mean it’s a kind of make sense when you look at the numbers but it also begins to think that if only had enough for deposit and could transfer that because the actual cost of the mortgage isn’t that high it’s getting on to that mortgage ladder which is so difficult for young people now much hot much harder than it was so housing what do we recommend we need to improve the advice a lot of people just didn’t have a clue and it was again interesting because when I spoke to one of the senior civil servants on housing she said there was a very good website and of course what young people said to us we’re sick of being told about websites they want face-to-face advice and that’s why we think that we need to bring together the employment advice the housing advice the health advice into a single port yeah a single route with various portals that anyone can help them with and training the workforce in terms of helping them but we also think we need to deliver more affordable housing I know that there are lots of schemes like self-build and like outright to buy all this stuff but right now there’s still really niche market they’re not scalable yet so the the attempt to make them scalable is really really important we need to ensure that we enforce the regulations on the private rented sector as I say in my view the regulatory framework in Scotland is very good what I found like it was the enforcement and part of the problem of enforcement is so many people who bought flats on on buy-to-let as for their own retirement income so one of your states we visited there were probably 12 or 15 landlords each of whom owned two or three flats so if it’s a Housing Association or a big private corporation that’s the landlord you can do the enforcement but if it’s landlords who own two or three properties and are all over the place in terms of the estate itself it’s much more difficult to do the enforcement there has to be a lot a lot more work on that and improving access to social housing I mean one of the things that I thought about what people said wasn’t gonna work was one bed instead of two beds two beds are much much more flexible so that makes sense and it doesn’t cost that much more in terms of social housing to build a two bed but one of the things that were suggested by by civil servants or I think made sense is work much harder with social language in terms of managing the estate in terms of knowing where the vacancies were knowing where the people who are in larger properties could could move into smaller ones locally just trying to make the best use of the estate we have and of course building more social housing which I know that

the the Scottish government is doing but the issue for this report was young people’s access to that so on to my third theme was mental health issues so this is a really interesting report health behavior in school-aged children I recommend all here to look at it because once you start looking at the day do get completely obsessed with it so one of the things that was really interesting is that despite the fact that our secondary schools in Scotland are not doing terribly well we’re putting enormous pressure on our kids to do well which is affecting their mental health so it’s a kind of lose-lose the school press so so boys on an international comparison paracin 59% of boys feel over pressured by school work internationally at 39% a twenty percent difference for girls it’s a 30 percent difference in terms of their sense of feeling pressure when you compare Scotland to other other countries other European countries about how do people feel about school like school a lot boys in Scotland 14 percent the International comparator is 22 percent like school a lot girls in Scotland 54 percent the International comparison 64 percent and the really interesting one for girls in terms of mental health whose body image so 55 percent of girls think they’re overweight when in fact it’s 13 percent who actually are and internationally it’s 43 percent versus 13 percent funnily enough boys as well worry about their weight but not so much so 27 percent of boys think they’re overweight when it’s 21 percent who actually are so boys don’t have the same body image problem that girls have what I thought was really interesting is of the indicators there were 39 indicators in this in this health report and we actually did better on three we did worse on 19 but we did better on three and the three where Scotland came out well I just thought it was curious to see is toothbrushing so well done good news smoking very well done not a joke both of these actually in terms of public health are enormous we imported important and self-reported health but you know I think on the smoking and toothbrushing my guess is that’s a pretty dramatic change in Scotland from the last 30 years because when I first came to Britain 30 or 40 years ago most people in Scotland didn’t have their own teeth so we’re doing a lot better and it’s important I know but I just be curious about which ones are we doing better on those are the ones we’re doing better on most of the others we’re doing worse internationally or the same particular concerns for young people are about again their their sense of well-being and their sense of life satisfaction so for 16 to 24 year old young women 50% are dissatisfied versus 47% so yeah so there is a worry there’s a worry about girls and self-harm there’s a worry about girls and both of both ends of the diet spectrum in terms of anorexia as well as overweight and it sort of evens out as they get older but this kind of sense of well-being when young has long-term scarring effects in terms of life outcomes so on mental health we had I had two big recommendations they’re kind of two sides of the same coin there are strategies for improving mental health in schools and colleges we’ve come a long way in terms of things like bullying and the bullying data was not bad in the international comparisons but I don’t think we do enough to make schools just friendly places where people want to be and I think we need a lot more research on what does a school look like that promotes mental health certainly the young people talked about this a lot they talked a lot about just feeling bad at school not feeling good about themselves not feeling that they got respected at school and not feeling part of the school community so I think that if we did better at school we would have better early intervention not in terms of programs but much more about what kind of school varmints are at the same time promoting achievement and promoting mental health so I’m almost there so I think we need a life stage approach to poverty reduction as I started the talk early years the cases made but we have a long way to go to get it to get it embedded everywhere what the data tells us about primary schools is that actually the primary schools they children enter primary school with a gap and primary schools hold it steady they’re not doing too well at narrowing it but they don’t widen it where the gap really widens in young people’s outcomes is in secondary

school and what really showed in the report on young people’s health outcomes was the difference between how 11 year olds felt about life and how 15 year olds felt about life is reflected in school outcomes in the sense of the gap really widens in secondary I think early adulthood is the missing piece I think that we need a second chance narrative we need a narrative that says the transition to adulthood is hard and getting harder and it’s hard in part because of poverty but in part because of a whole range of social pressures and working age adults we don’t make work pay we thought that employment was going to do it we now know that 60% of people living in poverty live in a household where somebody is working but they don’t make enough money their hourly wages enough or they’re not working enough hours we thought that employment was going to do it and it hasn’t and it’s a great disappointment because fundamentally what we need is enough well-paying jobs certainly the living wage has helped at the very bottom of the spectrum but it still doesn’t help me in terms of Career Pathways in terms of progression the system is complex and dynamic a full and full of changes but we can do better so as always I’m going to end with a funny story and a sad story so I’ll do the sad story first and this is about is it possible to level the playing field so when I ran the nursery in Milton Keynes we did stuff on gender and there was a little boy called Darren and Darren was four and this is the early eighties you know we talked about girls toys and boys toys and books and how the boys were always taller in the children’s books and we wanted gender equality in the nursery and you know it was the 80s we were interested in that kind of thing but it was the same time when manufacturing industry was collapsing when the coal mines were collapsing when basically the job opportunities for white working men were disappearing all over the place so Darren’s mom said to me I think this is really important this gender stuff so maybe when he grows up he won’t have a job but his wife will and I don’t want him to feel bad he’s four years old and she’s already thinking the only way he’s going to make it is by marrying a rich woman well good luck kid good luck I say but the important part of the story is that she was not an oppressed woman she was not you know a victim of domestic violence she didn’t take drugs or drink she was a loving mother who saw the future for her son as pretty bleak and wanted him not to feel bad now a roll forward you know 15 years I’m in this exalted position in the department for education and one of my colleagues was taking his daughter to her Cambridge University interview and in the car on the way he would tell her what the questions would be like because he went to Cambridge and of course he got in he didn’t slip them a fiver to take her he wasn’t being corrupt he was using his social capital for the benefit of his child as Darren’s mum was using her social capital for the benefit of her child but the difference in the social capital of these two people this had everything to do with where they were on the social class spectrum leveling that playing field is very very difficult if not impossible but I do believe we can do things to ameliorate it so my second story about my own son he’ll of course grew up with highly educated parents in a middle-class household and got a PhD in anarchy and and however long ago it was when the g8 summit was in Scotland in Sterling he got arrested and I was at the Department of Education I got a text hi mom arrested yesterday out now behaving responsibly thank you very much son okay so then you know so he came back home for the weekend after getting arrested and chaining himself to the fence so later on I actually met some of Tony Blair’s officials who said yeah we were on the other side of that fence I hope we didn’t meet your boy but anyway and he was with a friend of his was a friend from school Dan so Dan had a completely different experience than grew up on a narrow boat his parents had no money he left school when he was 14 because he was bullied at school but he got on he got a job he was working and he had a nice girlfriend and he was he was doing he was living in social housing and he’s doing okay and I said to Dan remember Dan who left school at 14 he’s now early 20s I said Dan did you go to the g8 summit was Nathan

and Dan said I’m much too poor to be an anti-capitalist thank you very much thank you very much Naomi some really important messages there that have outlined the challenge of the task in hand and what I’d like to do is to ask you as an audience just to reflect on what Naomi’s been saying so that you have some really brilliant questions for our panel session in just a few minutes time what I’m going to do now is hand over to Alan loin and Olga to give their five-minute responses to what nomic Naomi’s had to say this the success of this will be judged by the fact that I don’t need to get out of my chair so I’m hoping that we can be self-regulating so over to Alan first and then Maureen and order thank you very much so respond to that it’s a little bit like the doomsday being slapped down in front of us than the state of the nation so thank you for that lecture and for those of you that don’t know the princess trust in case there are some here do three very simple things we help young people either get a job start the business or get the education they deserve in Scotland this year we will help about 10,000 young people and a great job I’ve got because every day young people are incredibly inspiring and it was lovely to read them some of the data chapters today that they’re smoking less they’re drinking ways they’re getting in young less trouble they’re getting less though you can’t be half pregnant but the third of them are getting pregnant and and I suppose the question is well what are we doing for them and what I thought was hugely encouraging from from the report was that in doing this work Naomi and the team for the Scottish government went and talked to young people and I think those sessions with young people were you know hugely inspiring for ever be involved in that but also they brought young people and they gave them some opportunity to see what it was like working inside the Scottish government so the young lady you were talking about was told not to bother about a career in politics hopefully there’s a group of young people from the southside of Glasgow who’ve seen what jobs they might do and I think for me the response to the whole report takes you back maybe about 20 years and I think it was a building very close to here where had a growing since the chief medical officer was giving a speech and he was talking about why Scotland’s sicker than everyone else in the world and we boiled it all down he done the econometrics modelling with normal about maths and me but it came down he said is it just the absence of hope and I think for me that that absence of hope for young people is what is making them poorest what’s going to make them cooler in the future so I think the more we can do to give them great options and I think that beam for me came through very strongly who are the people that are giving our young people those options are they well enough informed do they know what they’re looking for so that’s maybe one point of lights droid the second was again there’s a huge body of Em’s I just got the the data chapters to look at this afternoon so I haven’t had a chance to go through that but for me is where you know stealing the ship for they are Nicola Sturgeon or whichever a bit of government or the third sector or the private sector you’re driving you know what are the deals that you’re actually looking at so I think part of maybe the discussion tonight and maybe the debate we can have from this whole report will be you know what are we actually going to measure we’ve maybe declared a little bit of a bit to do and youth unemployment is half – over the last few years but the numbers of young people not doing anything in active count has gone up so let’s keep that number very much of the you know the front of our mind when we’re looking at some of these issues a couple of other thoughts there’s some big numbers in there but when you start to break them down they’re not that big so I think this year looking at our 40 in 1415 the destination survey young people leaving school four thousand young people in Scotland this in that year left in all positive destination that’s a lot of people you add them to every year before it’s a big number but in any given year it’s not that huge a number and if we can be systematic about it we can actually change some of those outcomes and young people I think there’s 4,600 young people from a kid experience background again it’s not such a big number that we can’t do something about it so there’s there’s lots of things that we can be potentially quite positive but what it will mean as we maybe need you know we need to look long and hard the organizations like the princess trust government bits of the private sector you know there’s lots of little boundaries and if it’s hard you know we always in wanna fall in we could organize it better it’s almost

impossible for the young people to navigate that where do they get the help from we need to do the joining up and just make it make it the right answer the young person and I was particularly struck by the idea that young people think there’s always someone and I think you know make sure we can help that someone help the young person as quickly as we can the other thing for me that would really struck me through the report is and it’s something I get quite passionate about this almost like the debates round about recycling if we go back sort of 15 20 years I think Glasgow City Council a problem because it almost filled up every hall they had the owned in the ground with rubbish so they had to do something about it they had to start recycling more and I think with with young people we shouldn’t see young people as a problem we should see is a huge opportunity and I was very struck meeting a young person being through the care system he’d been in four different schools he had missed out on his education for all sorts of reasons but he wasn’t stupid and just because we shouldn’t always escape equate skills and ability with qualifications intelligence is probably reasonably evenly distributed across the population wasn’t his fault things that happened to him so so from my point of view let’s look at it as a huge huge opportunity and actually we’ve got some amazing young people we just need to ask them with Capgemini came to our building a few weeks a few months ago with a group of very disengaged young people but in a week they’d all built an app that changed their view of what they could be doing the future and today I read on the front page the metros are getting the Train we’ve got a nursing crisis they’re all leaving but not coming from your bubble ah can we fix that with our young people what would it take to me join the dots to maybe bring the group that we’ve currently left in this pile here to be the people of the future so I’m very conscious of time so just for the slightly nerdy ones amongst you and class myself in that data is really really important I talked earlier about the importance of us actually looking at what was the number where you know what what’s the number we’re focused on the other thing we must be able to do something across all the different government parts to join stuff up and actually find out what works it might be slightly embarrassing for some organizations when the tide was open some of us aren’t really swimming trunks but I think we have got to find out what works over the long time we’ve got the data there you know I would love to be able to say to Scotia come you tell me if I just give you the list of 10,000 National Insurance numbers or young people what’s happened to them three four or five years out and if we start doing that I think we’ll start making far better decisions and then just finally I’m not going to talk about housing I’ll leave that to Olga but on mental health I’m very very struct get the services for young people need them and I hear all these complaints about comes why is it comes inside the school why is it comes and all these services inside the princess trust or other organizations absolutely has to be there it’s the biggest epidemic that we’re facing at the moment so thank you very much for the report and I’m looking forward to some questions afterwards it’s a very smooth change over and I’ll assure Chris Chapman that as our marks feature I will be very minimalist in my approach and so Islands used up those minutes I’ll keep mine even shorter so thank you very much M for giving me the opportunity to come along tonight and I’m really pleased that Naomi’s tackling those challenges that our young adults face so in my five minutes or less time for going rapidly reducing and I’ve resisted the temptation to consider careers advice much as I was and very tempted to and hearing the only highlighter and I’m delighted that she has raised it as a real challenge but I want to look at school leavers both those going on to higher education and those not and with a particular focus on our kid experienced young people are not just those who hit that threshold for a kid experience but those young people who experience disadvantage and a final little quick mention I want to for our young parents so I focused then on I very much agree with the recommendations three four and five and I agree with Naomi we need to do more and we need to do better not sure I agree a hundred percent with the wording in the text and I’ll go on to explain in Glasgow we’ve worked tirelessly to raise expectations and remove that glass ceiling and which bladed far too many very young people particularly when I came to the city and we’ve been successful eighteen percent of our school leavers go used to go to higher education that was in 2006 but last year and that rose to 34 percent the higher education is not just about

universities in fact the vast majority of our both accessing higher education as school leavers do so through our three colleges and we really value that partnership our colleges offer vocational programs at higher education level many of them lead to students being able to access degrees but actually not all wanted or indeed need to access degrees so I do agree with Naomi that you know let’s move that that huge emphasis of the degree being the be-all and end-all and increasingly those who achieve an H a and C or an HND and move into the workplace and then with the support of their employers are able to access further their qualifications and in some cases that does lead to a degree and a really good example of that is the work that we’re doing in the early years workforce but Naomi is right and there’s not enough programs in colleges which articulate effectively with university degree courses which means that some of our students have to do additional years of study which was a point made by the waiving access Commission so in order to have more people accessing more young people accessing higher education it’s not really rocket science is it we do need to raise a team it we need your more young people achieving better qualifications and to do that they need to stay on at school so our priority for schools must be on retaining young people as much as possible to stay on after the statutory school leaving age and I would really like to have seen a recommendation based on that those young people experiencing disadvantage must be encouraged to stay on at school could we consider incentivizing schools to keep young people experiencing disadvantage because though that group have more complex needs and therefore need more support need more guidance those are the young people are telling Naomi we need face to face they need that wraparound level of support and all the International evidence points to better longer-term outcomes if young people still and beyond that statutory leaving age so in Glasgow as part of our strategy for improving outcomes we’ve been focusing on key experienced young people along decide those experiencing disadvantage and our partnership with NCR Foundation delighted to see Ian here tonight is allowing us to use mentoring in a systematic and supportively to raise the aspirations of key experience young people and enabling them to have that good adult in their life we are working in 15 schools now but are absolutely mortaring on to rule out to all 30 secondary schools and already we’ve got emerging evidence of improvements and IANS here and he’ll take the needs of anybody in the audience who would like to join us to be a mentor and finally I’d like to leave you with a little thought about young parents those who have had their families young and have or are continuing to experience this advantage they find it exceptionally hard to move out of that place once they have children we’ve been supporting our appearance and nurseries to get into college but the reduction in funding for part-time courses combined with the priority being given to 16 to 24 year olds means they miss out they don’t get that second chance and they can access college places but again we’ve problem solved in the city to support these parents but it has been challenging because those policies aren’t joined up and we haven’t got all those young parents into employment so while 16 to 24 year olds are a very important target group let’s not forget that there are some just out with that due to their circumstances who continue to be disadvantaged and they need your support – thank you so I should explain that I’ve got a presentation here because when we first got the envy the bus’ll suggestion we should have fun and allow it to Scottish education in the 70s nail 80s where you sat Android you listen to teacher dead what you’re a tool some habits are very hard to shake or there’s all the authenticity so so again we’re and for those of us those are if you don’t know quickly in crew re well we’re Scotland’s largest housing regeneration and care groups so what does that mean it means that we walk

across 18 local authorities we are made up of six thousand associations and to care to care companies butter size is the most important thing about us actually what size does for us it gives us scope capability resources to really focus on individual issues so we’ve got a long-standing interest and understanding for everybody in our community all young people disabilities quite literally be want from us and how do we personalize our services unlike many within I think the public policy of a mid fall until we bit of a chart with focus on and older people so we all know the challenges when devote the demographic pain balm so-called and we’ve done a lot of work with Scottish government of what that means but what was coming through increasingly was that we were not listening to the voice of our young people and all our statistics or our survey showed that increasingly they were less satisfied with the services that we offer with how they access those services and what the total Warford to them and TM to be a lifeline expectations was sort of any many skilled we commissioned a number of research carried out by exists with young people as a bit of participated research be designed there be the event of use they did the focus groups and when I read me on this report the thing that really shocked me was and I think this is a really good thing how much in common there were some that very small bit of work to these much bigger themes what were the big messages that came across for us the big messages where that we should fall we should not fall into the coma traps about how you perceive young people and how they want to be engaged with so a really big segment came through is that people saying often young people is all about digital isn’t it they just want to be you know snapchat and and websites and that’s a they want to be engaged with but what people say to us and this isn’t a men report as well Naomi’s report they did not seem as a clear route to get housing advice and they did not want that just to be learned about websites they wanted something definitely wanted face-to-face engagement and we wanted tailor support what we have in Glasgow and increase lacrosse group as a fantastic housing options service sites which is face to face but they didn’t see it that’s that those people looks at all that income all that aspirations and ambitions but somehow we’d mess that group so we design the new service or working with young people learned about that and that’s going to have yes a portal the portal though is going to look beyond just housing it links up with employment in the area it looks at social activities in the area it looks at how you make a whole life and yes the dead aspires to homeownership the one but I think where they might have a slight tweak and emphasis from the report is that for the people that we work with provide services to which is two hundred thousand people across Scotland and total their incomes are such the homeownership is unlikely to be a realistic aspiration 70 percent of our households have a annual household income of twenty thousand pounds or less so when they look at affordable housing they’re looking at something it’s secure and view when we went behind what people meant by homeownership what liver really seen was we want quality we want choice what you feel will go ownership the what to feel it’s really Evers and that’s what we really have got to aspire to do and yeah coupled with financial advisor but how they might over time actually build up that capital recognizing that transferred our wealth through housing is one of the main ways that we build up wealth in this country there were also very clear about the impacts of police unemployment of a change and again that comes through really really strong in the report it’s that thing about the opportunities you get through social capital but who you know so we try as a group to police some of them we use the fact that as an organization please get yuge contacts we don’t have to do things very formally all the time but you know we work with architects so why doesn’t a young person which means have a chance to go work with an architect why should we go to the basic things that people think about all the time trade apprenticeships why don’t we stretch ambition and we do that really real I think people dead say that transport limited their life chances it’s not just the course it’s the fact that in many cases rural and urban it doesn’t exist you actually cannot get a bus to someone you to go to the right time and that’s a huge gesture a thing for people so we’ve got protect with strong partnerships with classical I think they’ve been really successful in many ways just one small example we are I mean participant in the MTR pathways but we’ve got a whole range of partnerships with schools linking people through to opportunities and relate to folks play and care leavers it may surprise you to know that actually care leavers when it comes to housing in being vhosts are our most successful tenants they are the people who have the highest tenecia sustainment rate they are the least likely to feel a tenancy

and that is testament to the work that’s done jointly before they get that house and it could have changed a bit with Norma’s point about you could certainly work with people who forget about a pleasant if you could get your head to twist to that we’re way ahead with our glasses we work unless for a very very long time and increasingly in Edmond all across the country as well so what’s what’s going on we want to recognize that the range of ambition that I spy on people you saw that coming through for our communities it’s not just the base into people of course that are arranged or intercepts if you can do and I hear the strong messages need about universities not to everyone I suppose our challenges University is very much but a whole range of people we did see as being from them and what we want to do is to make that possible so we offer but Shirley’s 15 year 1,300 pounds and also core Chilean maintainer and devote that azrael dissing very practical small things travel cards for apprentices a whole range of things so in essence a name what I would like to see I think we agree a lot and what the problems are we even I believe what the solutions are I would organization aims for sure that you can do a lot by imagination by Pat my shirt by being resilient by listening to young people the challenge for us all is how do we scale this up right across Scotland to meet the challenge and how do we do that in a way that Stoli means really personalized but each individual young person because overall the message to others lesson to us hear a voice and work with us thanks very much thank you thank you very much to the panel for a Dearing to some of the rules some of the time that was that was really helpful what I’m going to do is ask our three panelists and Naomi to come to the front we should have some roving mics excellent perfect and I’m going to open it up for about 20 minutes for questions from the floor do we have anyone who would like to start us off okay we’ll just take the lady here because you just say who you are and where you’re from before you address the panel please Thanks hi there I’m Jennifer Davidson I’m the executive director for the Institute for inspiring children’s teachers which is a joint venture between the Center for Xbox Philips after children and the center for youths in criminal justice at the University of Strathclyde I know it’s great to hear from you and really inspiring to hear the rigor that you have applied to this and your reflections on this I’d like to ask you a specific question in relation to young people and their mental health and I haven’t had a chance to take in the whole report but I love I’d like to ask you specifically about the quote and where a young person has commented on the link to social media as being a key components of perhaps young girls experiences of they’re struggling with the emotional issues do you have any comments about any recommendations for us to be thinking about in relation to technology in the lives of young people today um the quick answer is no because I think the research is quite mixed because there is some research that says it’s promoting social connection if that is not just negative so I so so my quick answer is I don’t think we know enough yet but I think we need to keep an eye on it I’m nervous about it becoming this is the issue of the week thank you any other members of the panel would like to respond or we can move on it was a question directed at blaming the other thing I would say I mean we talked about the the transition 11 to 15 and we you know I think we do see special advantage when obviously young people they get first phone to deal with it because it’s a huge challenge for schools I mean teachers are suddenly confronted with a whole range of issues that they often are outside the school but they come to school we need to prepare people a lot better to understand but I think as nobody said we just don’t know enough thanks very much we will take a question here first and then second half way back so the gentle gentleman just just if we get the mic down that’d be great my name is sandy Campbell and I’m from a charity called working rate that helps get young people into jobs and apprenticeships who work based mentoring so I agree very much near me about the non-academic roots and they’re emphasizing that I agree very much where things emergency before and this time as well about the focus on booter areas but one statistic jumped out for me and one quartz jumped out for me was the 14 and 11 percent of young people who hate school a lot I’m

guessing that that is a way more than 14 and 11 percent and from chapel in yoga and white inch and it isn’t some other parts of their city now those young people have had enough of school at 16 it will not want to set another exam they do not want to be in another classroom so why does your report only focus on colleges which is more classrooms and more qualifications and does not say anything about workplace training in the workplace in small businesses when ordinary everyday workers can mentor these young people and provide them in a with a bridge towards engaging in education later in life and the other point is about the 859 and 80% of young people who are pressurized by school work why do we put young people under this pressure to make all those decisions by the time they’re 18 when I can’t happen later why can’t we give them a bridge into the next days later on I can’t ask Naomi to respond first and then more yeah why don’t you start yeah hey where does the order that’s fine well I suppose I’m a little bit concerned that you’re using pejoratively areas like Jim Chapel with a sweeping assumption that those young people would not like school as opposed to I don’t know if your comparison is with a leafy suburb I think I would consider all our areas in the city equally and we don’t put those kind of sweeping generalizations I think that in teenagers and it goes into their DNA I hated being at school and when I was 14 15 and 16 and couldn’t wait to leave and I didn’t go to a school in an area of disadvantage but I think it’s in your teenage DNA and I think our schools need to get smarter and at different types of learning and I think the data coming out on training providers is incredibly mixed and if you look at the positive outcomes coming from training providers the statistics are not good and I’ve been working with SDS to try and get underneath that because I we started in the city recommending to our employability teams not to send young people to training because what they were going to was a pretty diminished experience in many cases and I’m not suggesting that that is the same across the piece but I think we need to get better at quality of shooting those places and we need to get better data that tells us where the very positive experiences are I think colleges are places of learning and they have a very varied approach and two people two different learning styles so I don’t think they are more classrooms and that a lot of college programs have a work in element to them too so that young people do get that variety what we need to do is to blend young people’s learning much more to have that bit like the foundation apprenticeships are beginning to do by blending classroom workplace and college experiences together to develop a much two richer experience for our young people Thank You Maureen McNamee amenities I’m sorry that you took from it that I didn’t want workplace placement because that is really important I’ll have to reroute myself and see I mean I think college is part of the solution not the whole solution and I agree entirely that the mix of a day in college some time at the workplace and some support is really important but if you are indulgent was yet again another story I get a lot of my feedback I want to go to the hairdresser and there’s a thing that we talk about because I’m an early years person about young girls and career pathways of hair or care so the girls weren’t going to do well at school what do we want them to do we want them to go into childcare or that we want them to go into hairdressing so sure enough the apprentice who is washing my hair had in fact started out at 16 as an apprentice in childcare she was 16 years old she had no training at all she was working full-time three pounds an hour and she was in charge she was key worker this is England I have to say maybe this doesn’t happen in Scotland she was key worker for nine children as a 16 year old and she I rang up a local sorry Axio sword and she was allowed to take four to five children out to the park by herself as a 16 year old so in terms of the work of an inappropriate use of out workplace I mean this girl was used as workplace fodder for a private sector childcare

agency and what I really was impressed with her is she left because she felt it was too much responsibility and she loved hairdressing so I’m glad she’s in hairdressing I’m glad she’s not looking after young children but I think that you know I agree with what Maureen says I think that there are different different courses for different young people but something that you need to combine workplace with training and support and certainly in childcare the apprentices should be supernumerary and not part the basic requirement in terms of numbers of staff to children thank you very much Naomi we have a question halfway to the back and then one down here I’m seeing hammers popping up everywhere now so I just do my best to capture the more you and I yeah my name’s Janet Findley I’m going to corner must hear that the University of Glasgow in interest and weeding and access but in actual fact I was really taken by something that knee or me then said about give years officers and you know it really did to something now personally aware of in 1976 that’s 41 years ago I went to Kittitas on views of 16 year old and a skill in the East End of Glasgow and when I tentatively suggested that I might consider going to university because some of the teachers had thought that I mean I was told that absolutely they would laugh at me if I tried to apply at University we fav hires and I should really consider techni you know any chance see or something and see how I get on fast forward to last year and my 16 year old daughter and a skill and exactly the same area my daughter’s adopted so she’s cared experienced has some problems as a result of that attends a kid ears own of you and the king’s officer has no information about other than in what she chooses to tailor which is you know I don’t like school I don’t like that so she’s a highly intelligent talented young woman and the careers officer suggestion was that she spent some of the next two years of school team going to college to learn how to design Keeks know that tells me first of all that there is a continuing problem where the courier service these are anecdote like said that but it does really say on there yeah so that tells me that a continuing problem and it does tell me there’s a continued calm because I don’t believe either then or know that me or Medora would have been told those same things and a skill and a more affluent part in a setting I don’t believe that so that’s the first thing I would ask morning it is pointer I just don’t believe that and the last thing I just I just spend this last Maureen to respond to that point it’s just a point it’s not a question if I can just barely quite I agree we were alga said that and the distri that not everybody needs to go a university but the distribution between University and college and all that outcomes should not exactly match the distribution of class and it currently does thank you very much I’m glad I let you make that last please Maureen than all the very things isn’t it I’m appalled by that too we’ve moved our statistics from 18% to 34% because we are changing conversations because pastoral care teachers are having different conversations and with young people and I’m moving a lot of those glass ceilings and systematically we’re working our way around to to take away those sweeping assumptions so I am horrified that careers guidance of which I have no control over 20 years guidance service comes into our schools and under-deliver I don’t have any responsibility for training them for having conversations with them and and I do think that is and that’s why I would have chosen two years guidance and could have board for Britain on it that we do need to change those conversations and with young people so that we have that equality of opportunity or else nothing is going to change okay question here and then later kind of straight so you can see then on the console and on and I’m very perming from the David Hume Institute name is very good report very interesting report very comprehensive reports not first and your panelists may remember determined to succeed and more choices more chances and various other initiatives over the years looking at exactly this problem so when you see the first minister what are you going to say to if you do nothing else do this one thing and make it different this time well what I will say is that and I’m not giving anywhere I’ve agreed to be a joint vice-chair of the poverty and inequality Commission and I’ve asked

very explicitly that the role one of the roles of the poverty and inequality of commission amongst other roles is to monitor the implementation of the recommendations on both reports so from that point of view and that’s been agreed so I will be dogged in checking out the implementation of the recommendations in terms of which one do I think will make the most difference I honestly don’t know I have to think about that thank you st. the question and a 16th to answer that’s great we had the next question of it hi Monica Lennon I’m a member the Scottish Parliament for essential Scotland region and I was quite shocked by some of the comments on young people’s emotions and how they feel about the situation even the reality is perhaps a little Defensor and they or me you talked about how young people feel at school about their self-worth and maybe not always still in support of their respectives morning you later said that I’m seeing one it’s still for longer could be a good thing in perhaps that should be incentive a so I wondered Naomi what’s your response to Maureen sort of recommendation that that that is a good thing and I wonder what morning thinks about all these comments about young people not always still and respected and supported in school and what kids if you said that that may be the case how could we change that so the first thing stays really important I’m sorry didn’t say it at the time I did quote and give data from a rigorous research report but the comments I made were from individual young people and can’t be seen as representative so they weren’t from a formal research report they were I met with Prince’s Trust young people I met with young Scot young people and that was those are very good conversations but they were not representative they were what young people told me who I happen to have in front of me so I don’t want to all conclusions on that what I would say is that one of my recommendations in the first report which is reflected here again is about dignity and respect and I just think that’s a fundamental thing that we all want and that is pervasive issue in public services now it would take you know over coffee as American tell you why I think that is it’s too long to explain that but it is a pervasive issue in public services that we treat the people who use our services as supplements and we want them to be more compliant and we’re irritated when they’re not compliant and teenagers are not compliant so I think that’s fundamentally part of the problem but it’s too long a story but I do I do think that it’s important to distinguish between what is the data in the report and what young people said who happened to be the young people I was lucky enough to meet and talk to I think that in terms of dignity and respect it’s been our huge challenge for us in the city to have five and a half thousand teachers and respect the dignity of each and every child given the challenges that our children bring in but that’s their rate but that child’s rate is to be respected and I think it is a lifetime work that we need to to continue to work with all colleagues to ensure that they develop a deeper and a better understanding of what our children come to school with what’s in the little backpacks what’s in those experiences that they bring and that’s why as a city we’d fit ourselves the aspiration to be a nurturing City and we use the nurture in our in a very systematic and deep we to drive forward change so that all teachers all members of staff think about thought not sure is and what that means in all their interactions I don’t think I’m not sure we’ll ever reach that point of seeing my goodness me here we are Glasgow they’re not cheering City but we must continue to aspire to it and we must continue to have all our young people’s voices hair done it I do worry that with all the pressure coming around attainment and exams that we lose and young people’s voices and their and those opportunities for those breadth of achievements the work we do with the Wheatley group and you’re exploring young people’s voices but also having them in achieve housing qualifications those housing qualifications won’t appear as the scores and the doors in there and all the league table stuff but my goodness those young people love them because they learn more about housing they get jobs at the end of it and they become better and more rounded young people as a result of it so I think and

there’s a lot we have to do and we just need to keep pushing at it thank you morning until Moscatelli University of Glasgow I suppose there’s questions for Naomi but others may be able to continue particularly Olga your point about housing Naomi because it’s interesting I mean you said quite rightly that housing wealth is one of those biggest sources of inequality but of course there is a counterpart of that because if you do see owner occupation as which is a very British preoccupation as being you know the way out of that actually also exposes young people to quite a lot of risk as well we’re assuming that price house prices going one direction as we saw in the nineties doesn’t work that way so I wonder if you could address that because it’s a real issue I mean on the one hand it means well does keep being transferred to to wealthier kids but on the other hand you also have this issue of what’s the right balance I mean social housing may be the answer to trying to level level the playing field I mean I have an answer that is completely impossible and toxic it’s inheritance tax you know I mean to me that is in terms of social mobility that is the single most important issue and if we had a whopping great inheritance tax then it becomes less active because that’s life you know yes that’s quite an issue but I have to say I’ve raised this with major political parties and they look at me like I’m out of my mind it is incredibly unpopular but it is such a form of social disadvantage that you can and I don’t see why you can’t tax Ted people seems completely sensible to me to tax dead people that know me and I think we have time for what I know the lot of hands up and I’m terribly sorry but hopefully we keep on keep the conversation going after than someway we have time for one final question thank you watch there my name is Paula peach and our high school teacher is member and I’m deleted with this report it seems to me that you’re arguing for a universal and CDT devale for your system you know which observable of obviously well I would want introduced about because I’m very concerned about the government’s approach the people people equity funding and I would my concern is I can see that money going to snake oil salesmen and skills or into the pockets of middle class teachers through advertising for deputy head jobs principal teacher jobs and I’ve been tasted to see what every person on the panel would advise necklace dodging though the people I could different thank you a really nice way to finish thank you so we’ll go for rapid fire across the panel I think the delay is drawn a mister please no need you on to start is that there’s been various with the pupil premium in England some of it good some of it not good a lot of research on it but one of the things I really worry about is this issue about buying and intervention and evidence-based manualized intervention and you go into classrooms and they’re running three four different evidence-based manualized interventions and on Tuesday it’s this one on Wednesday it’s that one and it these skills teachers and I think that we need to get much more nuanced in the way that we use research to improve practice it isn’t just taking off the shelf the pack because that’s what a lot of that money goes for I’m okay we’ll just we’ll just go down the panel please sir and then I’ll take your question at the end yeah we had one focus group with Minari ethnic young people some of whom were Muslim I don’t know I don’t think all of them were but I know that actually the fifteen-year-old girl did identify as a Muslim the one who said who was told don’t bother to go into politics so I can’t answer you specifically in terms of prevent they didn’t specifically talk about prevent but they did talk about stigma and the assumptions made about Muslim young people and you know I mean I think prevent is a mess myself and but you know but in terms of what young people said I can’t report to you specifically that they complained about that they didn’t they complained about what they complained about which was in fact in my view more interesting and more hurtful was that they had lots of white friends who just didn’t get it who

kind of are you know if they would talk to a white friend about a slight or about racism in school or whatever it was oh well it’s just like that isn’t it and did not get it in terms of support and didn’t get it in terms of gee that must be awful so in terms of tackling racism in schools it felt that the infrastructure was very weak and that’s why I wanted to make sure that we we picked up essent minority issues in the report I I think there’s a long way to go in Scotland in terms of race and that you know the employment data tells us that but prevent did not come up from the young people themselves thank you thank you for that is that okay sir is that K and an apologies to all the other groups that also have their handler who haven’t had time to get to ceiling can we just quickly round off with that rapid rapid fire on people equity funding so baby is a way to raise more people actually fund we could pack some of the social capital C or your Cambridge headed civil servant when he dies we can take some of the social capital given summers I think for people exiting fund we asked young people two or three years ago at the princess trust you know what they would do in schools to really and they said well perhaps if the only instead the measure for head teachers was well how many of us are going to get a job and I think you know I very much aggrieved know me let’s not just spend on little intervention and get to know the young people use that to give them something that will actually improve their their life chances as a report says and it may be a whole range of it might be a whole range of different inventions the best thing I think I’ve seen is some of the work we’ve done with taking young people out showing them five or six options and it’s not just about the young people it’s about the teachers who’ve gone with them and they’ve understood you know what those options are and that for me is what I think it could be really powerful absolutely agree with you the oil salesmen are right and they are sneaking across the countryside into our schools and if I was to see to the First Minister it would be that money on its own doesn’t make a difference and that we should be a lot braver and a lot bolder about what makes a difference in the classroom and focus on that and then if necessary bring in additional money but and I think we’re moving in tricky times and you Maureen Olga I can’t gain – Maureen Jaques speech in the series we’re going to do a board you and answer the question before last you think about dad spoke motivation and was always full of rules ah things about our legal I’m split without obviously phone so talked a bit about how you target people and I think we’ve the pupil premiums another example verse or you know maybe well-intentioned example of how you use in the state and individual funding to have people put on money to these about on some we I think one of the issues that we have been to boat promoting oil occupation as an example is that actually then basically reinforces and Dipple case inequality we look at a range of options I think a good range options for people who don’t qualify for Social Haitian there’s something called med market rain which is for people who work but don’t necessarily want to buy we need to be inventive and debater and we need to look at truly for as a sustainable solution putting people with low incomes and affordable and to an occupation isn’t to see them in a long term and keeps a lot of precious so the successful to answer the question by using the for life so have never thank you very much the panel and thank you and to you tutorial so it just leaves me to welcome professor sir and to Muscat le to offer some final reflections are those of planks and suspenders or on a way science on thank you very much well thank you very much Chris and it’s a pleasure to be here and thank you very much Naomi for your really interesting report and for presenting it here this evening there all of the independent advisor on poverty inequality is an absolutely vital one ensuring the government is able to benefit from the best impartial advice on such an important issue and and as we all know it has been a bit of a debate on the role of experts in the political process over the last few years stemming from some intemperate remarks made in the United States and subsequently some a little closer to home but it’s I think in that context it’s really commendable that the Scottish Government seems determined to

ensure that it benefits from the best impartial advice on poverty inequality and and what we told this tonight which is only a summary what is a hugely complex and report I think is really really good advice and I’m also pleased to hear what you said a moment ago the only boat implementation and and ensuring that through your role in the poverty and of course it can Commission you will actually be able to monitor what is actually happening um can I just I mean I can’t possibly do justice to this by by giving sort of detail remarks in the pan already done that so I was just going to make three points and then and then thank those involved and can I make one particular point which is some of the I’ve observed working with Maureen and the the winding access Commission Commission avoiding access and and they only puts your finger on this and it’s really really important it is that coming together of school and fee nhe which is hugely important to making all this work and and it’s great to see the report covers that in some detail I think you call it the sort of enchants narrative Naomi I think that’s really really important and recommendation five which particularly which causes the Scottish government to use 5024 learn a journey review to ensure that their fee nhe systems have more flexibility to allow shift between routes I think is absolutely critical we hear heard a number of things tonight about difficulties that people had doing those transitions and it’s absolutely key that we get that right and in whatever system we put in place I think the reason for that is that many people think inequality is just about capital or money and we heard some remarks by that actually as Naomi points out it’s much more difficult on that because if it was all about money a progressive taxation system would take care of it it’s a dynamic problem it’s a dynamic problem because is to do with social capital not just money it’s to do with disruptive forces such as innovation which changed the playing field all the time just as you’re leveling it something else will shift it and because of that it can’t just simply be something the taxation system and benefit system looks after this is why I think what they always says in a report which is that it’s all too about culture is absolutely right because if it was all about policy again we would have a set of policies that would solve it it’s not just about that it’s much more complicated than that and it’s it’s about trying to engender culture change in all different parts of our system the second point I wanted to make is just how important it is certainly as a representative from the AG sector for us to play our part and whilst I’m very proud of what this university does in terms of widening access we have 29 percent of the students at the University of Glasgow from the simd 40 postcode to the 0 to 40 percentile 13 percent from 0 to 20 and that’s a good achievement that’s not enough we recognize that’s not enough in terms of what we have to achieve in the next 20 years and what we highlight is reported that that is not achievable unless we really deal with those transitions from Fe to Aichi and that is something that not only this university but the whole – has to have to deal with the final point I would make it I suppose is a plug for Chris and its colleagues here at the university because I do think it’s important I think universities have another role which is how to provide more research more material for the Omiya colleagues in the Commission and indeed others in terms of research in inequality one of our six themes here the University in terms of research is addressing inequalities let me just highlight very quickly three such projects one is one and I know Chris is involved in the Scottish children’s neighborhood and all marnik which is a program of research and development led by three of our leading research centres in partnership with a large number of public third sector and private companies which is really to try and increase enhance coherence across services within the neighbourhood to create a holistic approach which really tries to improve the outcomes for children and young people in that area and it’s run out of their college of social sciences research have been printed here in East End of the city and I think that’s just one example of how universities can contribute the other is go well which is a multidisciplinary mixed method studies of complex intervention looking at health and well-being impacts and that’s another theme that me was talking about and the impact of housing led regeneration sense my interest in housing and finally the work of Graham net here at the University which has created new forms of dialogue and influence on refugee asylum and migration policy another those disruptive forces that actually are a great bring great benefits to the country but also this rock whole and

that whole playing field that we discussed so these are ways in which this university is trying to contribute I think all I need to say now is really to thank Naomi for coming here and presenting the report hugely important report can I thank the panel members Alan Maureen and Olga for their contribution to the proceedings can I thank Scottish Government’s but also what works Scotland policy Scotland and the Robert Owen center for educational change of activist co-host and professor Chris Chapman for making the arrangements but above all can I thank the audience for coming in dissipating in this evenings proceedings thank you