Rodney Hooper #01 – Investing Basics for Lithium: What to Focus On

you as an investor better not be walking into either a trap or a position where the company despite its best endeavors cannot solve a problem you must only invest in a company that is going to achieve battery quality and qualified material into the ev and rechargeable battery supply chain hello welcome to crux investor first of all thanks so much for watching this video if you like it give us a thumbs up it helps us understand the sorts of videos that you think we should spend our time money and effort on for you uh also do leave your comments below it helps us understand the sorts of questions you’d like us to be asking how you think we did of course what you thought of the individual um you can also catch this as a podcast article or transcript on crocsinvestor.com and of course for our crux investor club members you get early access to these videos and if you haven’t already done so please click the button in the corner of the screen to subscribe to our youtube channel and of course for more videos like this click the notification bell today we speak with rodney hooper from rk equity they are a consultancy focused on lithium and also battery metals so they share with us today some of their knowledge around brian’s clay’s hard rock we talk about hydroxide carbonates and spongy mean and what they all mean in the marketplace and we also get into what should investors be looking for what type of companies are likely to succeed what do they need to have in place which partnerships they need to have in place and how do they capitalize in the current marketplace so lots to discuss fairly entry level stuff for people new to lithium but also quite a good reminder for existing lithium inverse is what they should be focused on so take a look at the description below some of the topics discussed anything interesting in particular click on the number beside the topic that’s called a time stamp and i’ll jump into that part of the video otherwise enjoy what rodney has to say how are you doing sir what are you mad yeah not too bad not too bad now you’re calling us from uh south africa how are things there i am i’m calling it from cape town we’re midwinter not mid-summer like you um and like everyone else uh trying to cope with covert and how how are you coping with covert what’s happening uh so for me personally you know i’ve always worked from home and then traveled so the travel but of course has been impaired but um yeah south africa has uh it’s not often we rank fourth on the list and we rank fourth i think in total cases and coverts so um trying to uh you know trying to get that under control it’s not good and there’s a real kind of expense to that as well isn’t it that’s the kind of bit that people forget i mean so how’s south africa coping yeah so we’ve we’ve set aside quite a large support funds but you know the balance sheet isn’t that of the us and the uk we recently got a loan i think of about 4.3 billion dollars from the imf but um we have some fairly tough measures in place here in south africa we’ve got curfews we’ve got bans on alcohol and cigarette cells so uh it’s been really difficult for uh certain sectors so i mean that that’s i mean that’s quite serious curfews etc but why the ban on alcohol and cigarettes i mean we’ve heard that a few places but what’s the logic that’s been given to the public so uh the the cigarette ban i think was around respiratory you know believing it you know to be respiratory related but uh the interesting thing is that british american tobacco obviously losing sales did its own survey and and came up with the numbers that about 95 of smokers are still getting cigarettes just illegally so they’re not paying you know government uh taxes aren’t being paid on the sale and then the other issue which i found really interesting is they said because of the cost under the black market which can be as much as i think four to five times the normal price that people are sharing cigarettes and then of course that poses a risk of passing on coverage on the alcohol side um what we what the hospitals were finding particularly in the regional areas where they don’t have big hospitals is they were facing uh an enormous increase in in alcohol-related violence etc so that emergency beds were being filled up with non-covered related patients to the point that you know they were you know putting labs at risk so they took the view to ban alcohol cells again we’ve been open so it’s not like they didn’t have the stats we were closed and then open and now we’re closed off again yeah i think there’s a few places um obviously like we’ve just searched for spain you know they’ve got a kind of a 14-day quarantine for people coming back from spain to the uk because there’s been an outbreak there melbourne and australia the same so and the states as well that’s a whole whole other story um well like let’s

we’re not here to talk about covert uh we’re here to talk about lithium something you know a lot about so um we had howard uh klein on recently he’s your business partner you guys focus entirely on the lithium storage so maybe give people a bit of background about you rodney hebrew you know why why have you got the right to talk about lithium so uh it was an interesting one you know being south african mining has always been part and parcel of of our history and i’ve dealt in other areas in different shapes and forms but a few years ago i had a look at the landscape i actually did an in-depth thesis for a family office on oil which turned out to be successful at the time if you remember oil plummeted into the 20s back then but i did quite a lot of research around the threats and risks to the future demand for oil and came across lithium now in south africa of course everyone was hoping a lot of the companies were hoping that fuel cells would come through because that needs platinum but it was around the time that elon musk was emerging and and the potential for specifically for electric vehicles was becoming apparent because the cost of renewables was plummeting so the potential to have a closed loop of you know batteries and charging using clean energy was starting to form and looking amongst the energy vehicle battery metals and i still do think there’s some good prospects in others but lithium is the irreplaceable element of the lithium-ion battery and in terms of impact on size of market and shift going forward you know lithium is the most impacted of the ev battery metals so for the last four years i’ve literally seven days a week 15 hours a day just you know gone down the lithium wormhole and never come out it’s it’s a very nuanced industry and complicated and i have spent that time uh literally dedicated we do cover the eevee battery metal space but lithium has has dominated our work and um we’ve worked with a lot of company and people and we speak uh to this to the lithium battery supply chain from the you know from spodgerman you know from the precursor providers right to the other end of the supply chain so we chat to everyone and uh have a fairly a good handle on uh on everything that’s happening across the space okay so you’re spending a lot of time uh involved with lithium and your you provide analysis and do consultancy work for various companies okay so you you are you are really involved with this so i want to start from the beginning though because there’s quite a few people who you know made a bit of money on lithium about two three years ago and then it’s kind of the price has dropped off no one’s really interested in lithium at the moment um but they’re starting to look at it the ev thematic is is is starting to to grow and it’s not growing the pace people thought it might but nevertheless lithium’s sort of coming back on the agenda so if you don’t mind we’re going to go back to basics so let’s start with uh terminology first of all so we’ve you’ve mentioned one of the things that spojuming there’s also um hydroxide and carbonite so maybe you describe what each of those things is okay sure just one other thing you know to point out is is that people must understand is that the lithium industry didn’t start and evolve it’s been going since the 50s in the states it didn’t start with the basis of supplying electric vehicles lithium started out you know as an example and one of the places that you can you know produce lithium is in the you know out of bran in the south american brands is it was a byproduct of the potassium industry so one of the things that people need to understand and it’s something that we’ll discuss as we we move forward from here is the quality of lithium that is required to supply the industrial market which is the history of lithium which is grease glass ceramics etc is not the same as what is required in the battery industry the purity levels are completely separate products so when people think of of lithium as a commodity it might have some merit in looking at in that shape and form for the historical industrial applications but for the battery industry it’s very much a specialty chemical beautiful so in fact that’s really important to understand so they’re it’s been around a long time i appreciate that and there are other uses which you know probably make up the bulk

of the the market at the moment but investors are getting excited for companies based on what they’re hearing around the battery uh the the battery thematic the ev thematic what what automotives are going to be doing going forward i appreciate there are these and we’ll we’ll cover off all of the above for sure so so matt the the the historic applications are much very much gdp growth related industries yes you know they so they they are linked to industrial applications and they’re gdp related the excitement is around the lithium-ion battery industry which is going to compound at quarter 25-30 percent and that’s unprecedented so when people say lithium is abundant lithium is abundant so is nickel so are other things but can you commercially extract it and can you produce the product that’s needed and it’s one of the stumbling blocks in investors you know mentality looking at it is they don’t they don’t uh look at the they don’t consider the nuance of what it is to produce a product that has sometimes 10 parts per million of you need impurities at less than 10 parts per million of a product it really requires you know a specialty process and that’s where the margins are at and that’s the excitement so if we go back now to to what you mentioned so the you know the lithium started out in the us it was based on hard rock so it was mostly spodumon based material you process that into um into lithium chemicals then in the 80s the bran opportunity arose in south america and the u.s pretty much shut down and it went to um it went to uh south america and then back again green bushes in western australia you saw the rise of of hard rock mining again so from a brian perspective the sun and the wind does a lot of the uh processing for you it upgrades the the content the lithium content in the brand so without having to do anything so from a carbon footprint perspective brine is actually quite low but you need uh i think i’m i don’t want to quote it but um you need an enormous amount of land footprint to have ponds as you you know pump it up and then move them from one to the other increasing the grade and the issue that’s always uh raised and it’s being raised now again in chile is what is the impact on the local the sustainability and the local and the impact on the local community and flora and fauna pumping brown out from under the surface but typically a brand will be processed into lithium carbonate as it’s you can do chloride as well but it’s just so from from a battery perspective which is really where we focus in this conversation is you make a lithium carbonate you can reprocess that into hydroxide but it’s an initial step and then a secondary step the other way to make lithium is hard rocks vodum and concentrate you dig up lithium oxide it’s mostly in oz but there’s other places brazil etc and you purify you it increase the grade of that to a six percent spontaneous concentrate and you ship that it’s pretty much exclusively done in china where you need seven and a half to eight tons of spodoman concentrate to then put through a rotary kiln sulfuric acid etc and produce you can produce carbonate but that is the is the preferred route for lithium hydroxide okay so that’s some that’s that’s some of the terminology and then also some of the history um around this can you give me give us a sense of the size of the current markets and projected for each of those sure so the in so that the total lithium market is just over three hundred thousand tons so if you assume an average of ten thousand dollars a ton it’s a three billion market so you compare that to nickel it’s tiny and this is the complexity of what we’re dealing with it was a very small industry and now of course with with batteries you know we’re expecting the size of that market to grow like 10 times in the next 10 years obviously you know seeing 10 times potential growth would also from from the demand side of things investors are going to get very excited about lithium especially with such a small market you know three three billion dollar market um it is nothing but if you if something becomes 30 30 billion over a relatively short

period of time that gets people excited it gets people investors specifically excited if they can pick the right company so you you tossed up on a few things though um brian’s pluses and minuses hard rock long history um and again pluses and minuses so where should people be looking should they be put off by brian’s or hard rock or even clays we’ve been talking about recently as well so okay so so if i if i can simplify the lithium thesis down to one thing so you can start from there and then ask the questions as i mentioned earlier the the lithium applications for industrial uses have gdp-like growth so there’s nothing sort of sexy and exciting about that that good margin businesses make no mistake album all they do pharmaceuticals you know et cetera that they make good margins but there’s limited growth you must only invest in a company that is going to achieve battery quality and qualified material into the ev and rechargeable battery supply chain if if the company that you back does not achieve that qualification the margins that can be earned on on supplying into the non-battery application and into the oversupply market are not there they don’t justify the investment gates so so just as an example if you look at ganfin which is the number two they are currently trading on an ev to ebitda multiple of 70 because there is no you know the markets has been slightly oversupplied and tight but they are able to literally take any material and turn it into battery quality material and that skill and that ability has a huge value to it it does so and you have touched upon that earlier you talked about uh technology or technologies to be able to create high-grade um you know battery grade materials so companies that talk about that is one thing companies that are able to deliver that is a completely different thing okay because the amount of presentations if i can stop if i can stop you there there’s even another qualification so producing battery grade doesn’t get you qualified if you have the wrong impurities within your battery grade such that it doesn’t pass the battery supply chain qualification process that material then got to be sold into whatever market for whatever application it still needs to be qualified and you still and each cathode maker has different impurities they don’t want so it that’s what i said it’s a rabbit hole once you go down this thing you never come out but um no but you’re you’re you’re simplifying it i like this it’s really simplifying first because it helps us point towards the right companies and we then the difficult bit is once the once we’ve identified companies that are saying the right things how do we know if they’ve got the right battery grade materials so here’s an example so in our estimate says okay equity i’ve run through the numbers because of the what evs the x china market wants they want har nickel a cathode they want fast charging long range etc that can only use if your cathode composition is more than the sort of tipping points around 65 percent nickel then you can only use lithium hydroxide in that cathode you cannot use carbonate it’s to do with the sintering process when they do the it can damage the crystal structure so there are only really three qualified companies into the lithium hydroxide market outside of china that’s albemarle ganfin and lavend there are other companies that that supply small amounts but those three dominated so you have to when somebody says i’m going to do x y and z you’ve got to make sure that they’re doing the right testing and and the you know they’re going about it in the right way because it’s a very exclusive club that they’re looking to join and it’s the reason why a lot of junior projects will partner with those three in order to get where they’re going or look to pinch personnel from them in order to get the job done right okay so if you’re not one of those three you need to partner because this is good because again these are more well no you can you can go it alone so you know howard mentioned piedmont they are based in north carolina and of all the lithium hydroxide made you know albemarle and lavent reprocess carbonate in north carolina so there’s a lot of processing skill in that location but you are seeing

again we we are encouraged by new technologies like direct lithium extraction and clay etc but they still need to go through you know the process and doing the pile of plants and absolutely because again you know it’s one thing to do it at small scale it’s another to mine a much larger deposit that isn’t homogeneous you know you have different waste rock you have different uh you know all body how consistent is it so that when you scale up from a pile of plant producing 100 kilos to 20 000 tons is everything going to go according to plan and that is you know you know this is mining really i guess but in lithium it’s even more important because the allowed impurities are the the specification sheets are extremely stringent they they are and you know as a small junior you can’t expect to have all the necessary prerequisite skill sets in-house from exploration development building pilot plants getting into some level of production and being able to you know sell into the right market you’re saying so again so for investors always thinking from investors point of view the opportunities are to get in early because the leverage is there or get another point when you think the company has got necessary skill sets or partnerships jv’s or relationships to process properly so again how what would you encourage people to be looking at in companies so you you would if someone’s going to be taken seriously they’re going to have a lot of you know chemical engineers and so on on the staff less promoters and less geologists and what have you if they’re going to progress from being an exploration or development company into a genuine production company okay but um yeah so as i say that that to me would be a key thing to look at and again you’ve got to look at how rigorous the metallurgical test work is that people do um and also look at because again the qualification process it starts with a few hundred grams then goes to a few kilos and then it goes to ton it’s it’s a real process and you need to see how the guys progress along along that chain okay so again so i want to bring it back to clay’s brine hard rock there’s dif there’s different types of um costs to those things obviously brian’s is traditionally viewed as being quite an inexpensive low cut low asic if you were to to produce um hard rock is seen as much more expensive and clays i guess it’s the great unknown at the moment um if you were looking at these companies how do you view them in terms of their different cost structures again coming back to this pros and cons component okay so now i’m going to throw another one go down another wormhole with you so there is operating costs and yes brands typically are the lowest cost producer for carbonate and sqm i think it’s even under three thousand dollars a ton but now there’s royalties in chile as you know so uh does one look at um the operating costs or does one look at what the ultimate cost is in order to deliver the final product because that’s what’s going to generate your ebitda and your earnings so there’s again if you you know if you ship into china there are import duties and that and then if you ship out again as a foreign company there’s that on top of your product leaving it so their cost curves and their cost curves and it’s another added layer because if you just look at what operating costs are and then you look at the financials that are released by companies you wouldn’t think they’re the same people because you’re missing out on all of this hidden layer of expenses that happen between operating and sale so from a pure operating perspective yes in theory brand to carbonate is the lowest cost route to the point that i think it it’s probably going to put a lot of the the non-integrated producers in china who take independence bodrum and convert that to carbon it’s going to put them under pressure and in theory a hard rock to hydroxide is the cheapest route but again it depends on where you whether you’re integrated or not integrated where you source it and government royalties taxes and so on because again australia has a five percent royalty on spodjaman and you ship it out to china and so on so we do a lot of work around what is the actual ultimate cost to produce the product because investors need to know that in order to determine how profitable a company will be which i’d like to think is what matters okay so apart from royalties what are the other components the other costs that are

put onto a company so obviously they’re shipping depending on where you’re shipping it to but they are so um argentina is an export tax chile has a royalty on on alba mall and on sqm for what they sell it to as i said then if you ship it into china there is um import duty and vat and if you reprocess it and ship it out there is another uh export tax or vat if you will that when you ship it out so that’s applicable to lavend and to albemarle right okay so we need to start looking we start looking at financial modeling before we actually make some decisions yeah so it it really does uh if if you want to you know again it depends on where do you do your investing so if you if you like to take early exploration plays and run them to feasibility these things don’t matter if you’re actually looking at worrying about operating companies and what the margins are then these things do match yeah so it’s interesting mix here for um investors because most of them you know don’t do a lot of homework here and it doesn’t really matter and perhaps um you know early early investing based on what the company says the promotional but i know you don’t necessarily rate the promotional component to it but it does have an effect but it’s not really going to move the dial when it comes to creating real values you’re saying you need to pick companies development companies with a real chance of getting into production with some real partners is that is that where the best leverage is the best value is in terms in terms of you know because early stage stuff is risky by nature because they all say the same stuff it’s too early to actually have the data or the metrics to be able to judge them properly so you know where are you advising people to look uh that’s a good one i you know i don’t we don’t necessarily uh um promote specific companies but we will certainly do the analysis to give the ins and outs of each one and the merits and obviously we represent companies that we believe can achieve what what need what’s needed to be achieved but just generically generically what’s the best stage in terms of in terms of mitigating risk but also leveraging you know increasing your leverage that depends on where the market’s at as you know matt that’s a you know that’s a million dollar question but where are the opportunities where you see the biggest returns happening and this happens time and time again through every cycle that’s from early exploration to proving up a resource and feasibility there’s always a big uplift there and then the second opportunity is after feasibility around the orphan period where you get that next chance where they where they in that two-year construction period and there’s no excitement around the hard work being done but they’re undervalued versus where they’re headed to okay so it’s the same as every other commodity saying there’s no there’s no nuance difference for lithium um it’s it’s not how it’s played out now but the other thing to mention is unlike copper or nickel or what have you there’s no lme contract on lithium so there’s no way to play the raw material you need to play you need to if you want to get exposure you need to actually physically pick a company because you can’t buy you can’t buy it as a as a commodity okay can i see questions i want to come back to clays um because it’s relatively new to the market i don’t think it’s really well understood and i’m not sure companies that we’ve spoken to or others have demonstrated technically how they can solve this problem at an economic scale so is that where are they is it relatively uh nascent is it relatively young technology or do you think that people will be able to deliver clay projects at scale that’s a that’s a tough question so the one project that is being funded and i saw you had them on the show which we know is baccanora and again i think i the jury is out but one one way of of giving of maximizing the probability of achieving what you want to is having the right partner and they’ve got ganfa and i can’t sing the praises of ganfin enough these guys have taken high concentrate brand from sqm and turned it into battery material they take spodgymen from anywhere they seem to get everything right and they are um as partners and they’re having a go at the sonora project so i would say if you if i’ve mentioned before that you need the due diligence of the chemical skills you know previously and that’s in conventional projects in in clay projects you absolutely need to back a team and management and look to make sure that they have the right skills my preference on on on the clays would be

to see some type of type like with again fin et cetera that that will maximize your probability of getting it done will it prove to be as economically viable as the feasibility studies say you know that always remains to be seen i’ve seen some feasibility studies already moving where the optics has jumped 50 percent so you know it’s uh again the one the one thing i would say that’s possibly in its favor is i’d say it’s a fairly homogenous deposit in terms of what you’re mining is fairly consistent so if you can get the process right you can probably start working at efficiencies because you’re not i don’t think there’s as many curveballs but it is unproven there’s a you know there’s a reason it’s it’s behind brown and behind hard rock in being tested um and it’s it’s worth it’s worth uh being explored it’s worth being tested in the same way that i am quite partial to dle to direct lithium extraction but i i don’t have i don’t you know believe it’s going to revolutionize capex and optics but it could produce the material back to the question of who is going to produce battery quality and qualified lithium into the supply chain is is people that can produce a consistent product time and time again yeah so i think your point about gang fang you know and having them on board as a partner for any company is very important as you say it in the case of close it increases the chance of success it doesn’t guarantee it because even they at this moment have not demonstrated economic economically viable solution for clays that is to come look you’ve you know baccanora has run a pilot plant i think of about 600 tons a year or what have you again it’s going from that to 17 and a half to 35 is are we going to have some you know is there a mystery problem you know in the mix or is it going to be simply just scaling it up because namaskar was supposed to do the same on you know on its on its process but um i think you also can’t underestimate the benefit of someone like ganfin with deep pockets and skills backing you so that if you do hit a few snags it doesn’t it’s not the end of the road for you you can work your way through it and i think that is that is important is you know all mining companies look for maximum leverage and maximum returns but if they run into snags is that the end of the road and you’re being bought out in a far sale or do you keep going and you know ganfin is the 10 billion dollar market company it’s it’s real no i just understand what i’m what i’m trying to get at always is protecting investors to to walk in knowing what the risks are and then you put that as part of your evaluation your own personal evaluation as to whether or not that suits your strategy so it’s just important to go the so demystified the language used by sorry i’m not this is not a backing or a conversation this is generic conversation around what companies say and what the reality is are two different things because they’ve got to paint the best possible picture you as an investor better not be walking into either a trap or a position where the company despite its best endeavors cannot solve a problem with gang fang and their balance sheet helps in that particular case not all companies have that so i’m just i’ll just again this is this whole exercise and this whole series is about helping people walk into investments with their eyes wide open so yes thanks for talking about um clays it’s it’s an interesting space if the if they solve the problem potentially very very huge for you know a handful of companies uh there for sure but again you know they don’t they don’t defy or have a separate set of economics that’s special to them they’ve still got to make money in the environment like everyone else um and i think there is potential the same with the others but one must understand that the incumbent lithium mages have not chased that space take that for what you will so well i had a choice and then passed on it yeah it comes back down to the technology is the the uncertainty you know you’re going to stick with what you know and you know they’ve got a one is a small market so even the major players are not that major um you know capital is tight uh the market is as you say it’s gdp type growth so far it’s not that been that exciting and the ev thematic has been a bit slow uh to materialize it’s ramping up but it’s still not there and you know covered in coco doesn’t really help things either so decision making yeah like you say make of it what you will but i i think i can read between the lines

um can we just um you you did a commentary the other day on nickel right you were interviewed about nickel this is all part of the ev thematic you know you’re not just pure lithium right um and we’ve seen tesla’s quarterly uh last week we heard what elon musk said and the impact of that for certain companies as being huge because i think it’s been hard to get a tesla away from the lithium store you know bank the lithium lithium battery lithium battery they’ve suddenly just almost overnight recognized nickel is uh important to them um what’s what was your take on his commentary with regards to nickel so yeah i mean look if you if you do the breakdown of a of a high nickel cathode battery the biggest expense of the entire um of of the high nickel cell is lift is nickel it’s and then second is lithium so if i so the way i see it is if you look at tesla if he hits 500 000 sales this year by our estimates he is 25 percent of the ev mortgage so for all the talk of tesla killers and tesla killers he might have increased his share of evs this year and it would appear that he has an ambition to continue to do that so i think what he’s realized is he is looking to expand giga nevada and shanghai and start berlin and put austin which is already under construction as well and if you are going to look to launch the semi which could have anything up to eight hundred to a thousand kilowatt hour battery in it which is like fifteen model threes all in one uh and the cyber track all of these need high nickel cathode and he said that because the semi it’s all about haulage weight etc he needs the best energy density and lasts this way on his battery packs so i never thought he was going to look to launch all of those in one go it would appear that he’s looking to maintain a very high percentage of the ev market share and he can if he launches it because whatever you speak to i mean i it depends on taste but the cyber truck looks to have a lot of back orders waiting for it so um what is interesting matters when he did make that comment he made it almost quite clear that he’s not going to do the nickel money he’s telling everyone else to get on with it so he’s that’s not when he’s spoken about getting into mining previously it clearly didn’t mean nickel because from the way i read that he’s not he’s not going to do it i do think one possible elegant solution to him securing more nickel is to do physical streaming deals which is effectively like prepaid off take with fixed pricing and you know tesla is let’s assume it gets into the s p 500 if you look at other companies in the s p 500 with 250 to 300 billion dollar market cap they have funding rates of like half a percent term funding rate so there is balance sheet arbitrage between the people who need the physical raw materials and junior miners who have to borrow at 12 15 so it’s not just about um you don’t necessarily have to uh buy the company but i think they’re ways of structuring it which you can effectively help fund the development of raw materials which i think is where we’re going to get to so i think a physical streaming deal with a fixed price guarantee to him might be an elegant solution where he helps everyone but in terms of raw quantum numbers he’s about to send nickel and lithium hydroxide demand into the stratosphere if he is going to launch the semi the cyber have the y this year and the three go it’s going to require an insane amount of materials it’s an insane amount of material he also gave a clue about the type of nickel he wants he said you know you produce it we’ll but we’ll give you a long-term contract but it needs to be efficiently mined and it needs to be clean and there was this you know there’s this sort of debate going on with regards to you know sulfide versus laterite nickel you know dirty versus clean or clean you know and that that’s an interesting conversation it’s certainly for people like if tesla is thinking that our big funds thinking that should investors be thinking like that again he puts something out there you know for debate it would assume that it will favor high-grade nickel sulfides with what he’s asking um but in the end you know this is a tall order with nickel at six dollars a pound to have all these other requests of how you mine it and where you source your energy and what have you and i’ve seen your nickel expert on he can discuss it is there’s quite a lot of requests going

into the back of this when prices are quite low so um uh you know it is possible to to do it and let’s be honest if you look at the price of renewables these days i think it’s a natural progression that’s going to happen um and there’s a lot of acidic you know waste rock if you if you do you know like leeching on on lateralites and so on but um what we’ve seen though is in the same light is he did an off-tank agreement with glencore for the cobalt and they they also they and bmw and others have um uh off take agreements with ganfin which produces hydroxide in china which is never going to have the same grid so is one going to have a is one going to allow it for a lead time in order to get a progression towards a cleanup you know mining and energy sourcing of all of these raw materials i think that that’s fair um and it’s it seems to be starting further downstream so north volts is going almost i think it’s completely carbon neutral and you know so that’s cell and then we can move up to cathode i guess basf is now going to give you effectively almost a carbon certificate on every project every product that they make but it’s going to take a little longer as we go upstream into the chemical processing and mining there’s you know you need to give some grace period i think there no doubt no doubt well look um rodney that’s uh thank you very much for your time today i mean seriously it’s you’re extremely knowledgeable on the subject and they say you do live and breathe it seven days a week so we were when we spoke a few weeks ago it was obvious to me um that you love love this space and there’s a lot going on and the nuance is really really important i think there’s some real key learnings for people new to uh lithium just coming in for the first time and maybe even people who haven’t really looked at lithium the right way before so i appreciate your time today and you’re going to come back every couple of weeks and and and talk to us and tell us what’s going on in the world because it looks like it’s rapidly working its way to some some kind of meaning for sure excellent thanks very much for having me on